Author Topic: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy  (Read 900268 times)

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Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2900 on: November 12, 2019, 12:29:38 »
Thanks Uzlu  - really interesting read.

Curious

The highlighted text begs for some additional investigation as it seems to suggest that the Project's management was conscious of at least the possibility of buying 3rd party hulls, both locally and offshore, and then outfitting them in the prime yards.   The approach that Damen and Vard/Fincantieri and others have exploited so successfully.

Was this a Washington Group - Seaspan - VSY decision?
https://www.seaspan.com/washington-companies

https://www.washingtoncompanies.com/companies.php

I am pretty sure that none of Seaspan's hulls were built in BC (or the States).

One thing to keep in mind is that there are competing factors when they look at options like this. The big one that has nothing to do with technical or feasibility is the IRB and Value Proposition requirements baked in for the Canadian content bit. Basically the would pay penalties for doing anything outside Canada, and it's pretty significant. With accuracy control requirements too not sure if there were any small yards in the BC area that could have done the basic outfitting at the module level, so that also significantly increases the LOE requirement if you do the outfitting later on by something like a factor of 5-7 times the labour (ie mega module or finished hull).

Didn't apply to Davie as those requirements weren't part of the AOR contract (but will under the NSS third shipyard requirements).

It's an interesting case study in how essentially politically driven contract requirements (that are wholly the responsibility of Industry Canada) can affect things like PM decisions, supply chain, etc.

Offline Uzlu

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2901 on: November 13, 2019, 10:22:28 »
It's now been a month since CCGS HUDSON should have come out of the hands of St.John's Shipyard, according to the contract schedule.

Anybody seen her or heard anything about the refit being done and over with?
Quote
The missions are usually carried out on board CCGS Hudson, but Fisheries and Oceans Canada said the 56-year old ship will be out of service until April 2020.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/oldest-ship-in-canadian-coast-guard-fleet-out-of-action-until-2020-1.5154930

Online Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2902 on: November 13, 2019, 16:29:21 »

Offline Uzlu

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2903 on: December 06, 2019, 08:32:15 »
Trudeau needs to quickly name the third shipbuilder and have them start building icebreakers as soon as possible.  And it looks like six 8 000 tonne icebreakers is not going to be enough.  Earlier, the Chamber of Maritime Commerce recommended an additional five icebreakers on top of these six.  Now it looks like the Lake Carriers’ Association might be suggesting the same thing.
Quote
LAKE CARRIERS’ ASSOCIATION SERIOUS CONCERNS ABOUT ADEQUATE ICEBREAKING

Concerns Mount About Adequate Icebreaking from both Coast Guards

CLEVELAND, OHIO  December 5, 2019  (LSN)  With the Lake temperatures falling and significant ice formation imminent, the U.S. economy is facing potential job losses and serious financial implications with binational icebreaking assets that continue to age and seem frozen in time.

“The nation’s economy depends on reliable and predictable icebreaking on the Great Lakes.  Last year, when cargoes carried on U.S. Great Lakes ships were delayed or cancelled because of inadequate icebreaking, 5,000 jobs were lost and the economy took a $1 billion hit,” said Jim Weakley, President of the U.S.-based Lake Carriers’ Association (LCA).

The reliability and number of U.S. and Canadian icebreaking assets on the Great Lakes is critical for the flow of cargoes to freshwater ports during the winter and spring commercial shipping seasons.

“Compounding the recurring severe ice conditions are record high water levels across the Great Lakes and connecting channels.  Annual ice jams at places like Algonac, East China and Marine City in the St Clair River, cause flooding of properties and damage to sea walls.  Icebreaking is essential to minimizing damaging impacts to shoreline communities from ice,” stated Justin Westmiller, Director of Homeland Security and Emergency Management for St. Clair County, Michigan.

Unfortunately the outlook is not good for reliable icebreaking on the Great Lakes.  In fact, the number of U.S. and Canadian Coast Guard icebreakers today is just 60 percent of what they were in the 1980s and 1990s for a system that has more shoreline than the entire U.S. east coast.

The U.S. Coast Guard has only 11 icebreakers in service, down from 19. During the ice season, as many as five have been sidelined with engine failures and other age-related problems.   The Canadian Coast Guard has only two icebreakers, down from seven.   Six of the U.S. Great Lakes icebreakers are 40 years-old and the Canadian’s two icebreakers are 50 and 35 years-old.

“We continue to voice our concerns that both the U.S. and Canadian Coast Guards need to take this seriously and put more icebreaking resources in the Great Lakes and repower the current aging assets to ensure they can continue to break ice.  However, the response has been slow as molasses in winter and insufficient for the decrepit fleet of icebreakers.  We are at a critical juncture, just to keep the small number of icebreaking ships operating is an ongoing challenge,” said Weakley.

Last year, three U.S. icebreakers were out of action during the ice season with significant engine problems.  The Canadians also suffered engine failures that kept them from joining the effort in eastern Lake Superior and the St. Mary’s River where dozens of idled commercial ships were stranded for days.  Icebreaking assets were stretched thin with boats stuck in Lake Erie, Lake Superior and the St Mary’s River.

This lack of adequate icebreaking on the Lakes continues to have far-reaching national implications.  Jobs across the country are being lost as Great Lakes shipping companies struggle to move the vital building blocks of America during the ice season. “Our industry requires efficient deliveries this winter which customers depend on to keep their operations uninterrupted,” stated Mark Pietrocarlo, LCA Board Chairman. Dave Groh, President of VanEnkevort Tug and Barge added, “We are hopeful that cargo will move this winter, it is critical to keeping the steel mills and power stations operating and people employed.”
https://lakesuperiornews.com/Shipping-News/lake-carriers-association-serious-concerns-about-adequate-icebreaking

Offline suffolkowner

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2904 on: December 06, 2019, 18:25:33 »
Uzlu, there was talk of an interim icebreaker(leased?) for the St Lawrence this year but I'm not sure what progress was made.

https://milnet.ca/forums/index.php/topic,131029.0.html

 The three Davie conversions should be ready by next year. The Molly Kool in service already and the Jean Goodwill maybe for this season. I'm not sure where they are planned to be used though


« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 18:46:13 by suffolkowner »

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2905 on: December 08, 2019, 11:35:43 »
Ontario's Heddle Marine (partnered with Netherland's Damen) says still in fight vs. Davie to be third gov't shipbuilder, to build icebreakers for CCG:

Quote
Heddle shipyard floats plan for expansion
Looking for Region’s support in bid for federal ship-building contracts

Heddle Shipyards have invited Niagara regional councillors on board as the company looks to expand its Port Weller operations.

Heddle wants to be the third shipyard in a National Shipbuilding Strategy that already includes Irving Shipbuilding in Halifax and Seaspan Marine in Vancouver

Company president Shaun Padulo told the Region's planning and economic development committee Wednesday the federal shipbuilding plan is a "huge" opportunity for the drydocks, St. Catharines and all of Niagara.

The federal strategy aims to supply the Royal Canadian Navy and Canadian Coast Guard with new ships.

"The next phase of the program is to add a third shipyard to the National Shipbuilding Strategy," Padulo said. "At present, there are two shipyards, one in Halifax and one on the west coast in Vancouver.

"We have the opportunity in this region to ask the government of Canada to come and build six icebreakers for the coast guard."

Padulo told the committee about Port Weller's history, which includes building one of the largest icebreakers in Canadian history, the MV Arctic, in the 1970s.

Hamilton-based Heddle made news earlier this year after requesting an investigation into whether the federal government was trying to rig the plan to add a third yard to its multibillion-dollar shipbuilding strategy in favour of Quebec rival Chantier Davie.

The government responded by invoking a controversial national-security exception that prevents investigations by the Canadian International Trade Tribunal.

The tribunal's role is to ensure the government follows proper procurement rules, including adhering to Canada's obligations under international trade law and free-trade agreements.

Heddle ended up dropping its complaint in August after its lawyers determined there was no point in continuing after the government invoked the exception [more here: https://milnet.ca/forums/index.php/topic,90990.msg1584384.html#msg1584384].

Padulo said Heddle acquired and reopened the Port Weller dry docks in 2017 and can handle the work.

"We took over the operations of the shipyard after it had been shuttered for quite some time," he said.

"Our goal, outside of the national shipbuilding strategy, is to get up to 150 employees, from 50 employees, in the next two years. If we became the third shipyard in the national shipbuilding strategy, we would create 400 net new jobs.

"We wouldn't be back to the days of 1,500 people, but it is not a kick in the pants either. It's a significant opportunity."

Padulo said when Heddle took over Port Weller, everything had been auctioned off. They had to start from the ground up.

The first day they walked into the facility, company officials learned water had been left on during the winter and pipes had burst. The electrical system was also down.

He said the company has sunk more $1 million of capital expenditures into the facilities and is committed to spending another half-million dollars each year for the foreseeable future to get that facility back up where it needs to be.

"We are here to inform you of what we are doing, and we are also asking for your help. The yards that are taking part in the National Shipbuilding Strategy all had the support of local government.

"I believe we should be given an opportunity to at least bid, and with the help and support of the Region I think we have a real good shot at this."
https://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/news-story/9765425-heddle-shipyard-floats-plan-for-expansion/

Mark
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Online Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2906 on: December 08, 2019, 15:10:30 »
Start out like Davie and Seaspan and get local contracts for repair and small builds. If your looking for government handouts at the beginning, your model is unsustainable.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2907 on: December 09, 2019, 12:09:01 »
ANOTHER WAY TO BUY FRIGATES by Ian Mack

Any thoughts on this article https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/cdfai/pages/4307/attachments/original/1573602733/Another_Way_to_Buy_Frigates.pdf?1573602733

Every time I contemplate our national procurement processes I'm amazed that I don't act on my first instinctual need to begin a campaign of self-harming.... :)
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Online Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2908 on: December 11, 2019, 14:09:43 »
https://nss.seaspan.com/featured-news/seaspan-shipyards-delivers-its-second-state-of-the-art-offshore-fisheries-science-vessel-to-the-canadian-coast-guard/

Seaspan Shipyards (Seaspan) and its 2,700 employees have completed Delivery of CCGS Capt. Jacques Cartier, the Canadian Coast Guard’s newest state-of-the-art Offshore Fisheries Science Vessel (OFSV), the second OFSV delivered by Seaspan. This ultimate milestone in the shipbuilding process took place exactly five months and two days after the delivery of her sister ship, the CCGS Sir John Franklin. These two ships are the first large vessels delivered under the National Shipbuilding Strategy, the Government of Canada’s plan to renew the federal fleet with ships built in Canada for Canadians.

Online CBH99

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2909 on: December 12, 2019, 03:54:06 »
Obviously it's great to see high quality ships in the water!!  :)

I really wish they would stop with the "first 2 large ships built under the National Shipbuilding Strategy" lines tho...pretty sure AOPS can be considered pretty big, especially compared to these OFSV.


Great news!  Just could do without the nonsense statement after
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2910 on: December 12, 2019, 09:27:32 »
No AOPS has been delivered yet.  Built - yes.  Delivered and under RCN command - no.
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2911 on: December 15, 2019, 10:25:06 »
Obviously it's great to see high quality ships in the water!!  :)

I really wish they would stop with the "first 2 large ships built under the National Shipbuilding Strategy" lines tho...pretty sure AOPS can be considered pretty big, especially compared to these OFSV.


Great news!  Just could do without the nonsense statement after

It has more displacement than the RCN’s River-class DDEs...I’d see that as big enough to call ‘large’... :dunno:

Online CBH99

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2912 on: December 15, 2019, 17:43:59 »
Fair enough.

It's just at approx. 3200 tons, compared to the AOPS approx. 6600 tons -- the continued statement of "first 2 large ships built under the shipbuilding program" seemed slightly self congratulating considering there is an AOPS in the water & another soon to be launched that are more than 2x as big.


Wasn't trying to nitpick, just the repeated statements about "first 2 large ships" kinda threw me off.  Glad to see the boats though, they look good  :)
Fortune Favours the Bold...and the Smart.

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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2913 on: December 16, 2019, 19:40:34 »
Canada needs to be able to project some power. I like the Japaness/Italian concept of helicopter destroyers that can also operate F35B vstol jets.

https://www.militaryq.com/2019/11/29/leaked-photo-general-atomics-offers-possible-japenese-helicopter-destroyer-conversion-into-aircraft-carrier/
« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 03:08:48 by tomahawk6 »

Online Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2914 on: December 17, 2019, 09:47:20 »

Online Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2915 on: December 17, 2019, 10:53:30 »

Offline Czech_pivo

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2916 on: December 19, 2019, 11:36:48 »
Australia - a template for us and our issues?

https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/australias-new-frigates-will-be-fit-for-the-future-our-submarines-should-be-too/

"BAE took a distinctive and smart approach to building flexibility into the core design of the frigate. This was smart because the painful history of large-scale redesigns of platforms to retrofit significant new capabilities fills the archives of various countries’ auditors of big defence projects. It is much harder and much more costly to do a major redesign than to incorporate flexibility early on."

"That’s why the Hunter-class frigate has a large multi-mission bay. The integrated mission bay and hangar will be ‘capable of supporting multiple helicopters, UUVs [unmanned underwater vehicles], boats, mission loads and disaster relief stores. A launcher can be provided for fixed-wing UAV [unmanned aerial vehicle] operation’. The designers have allowed for the ship’s systems to generate extra power for whatever is operated from the mission bay, and the ship’s centre of gravity has been set to allow new systems to be carried in the bay without affecting overall ship performance.

This means that the frigate is very likely to be able to launch, recover and operate with a wide range of types, sizes and configurations of armed and unarmed UAVs (drones), unmanned surface vessels and even unmanned underwater vessels. Some may well be launched from the missile cells near the bow."

"We already know that a key element in the new submarine’s design philosophy is to only have capabilities that are already ‘proven at sea’ in the design for the first boat. That has led to the program office staying with lead–acid batteries, which have powered submarines since World War I, for now, even as other navies and even Naval Group, the submarine’s designer, say that new battery types are ready for safe operation in its submarines already, let alone by the 2030s."

"the Swedes have taken the design that became our navy’s current Collins-class submarine and ‘evolved’ it by doing things like fitting a new section into the hull so it can launch missiles from large vertical tubes. And they’re bidding to build an evolved ‘Son of Collins’ for the Dutch, with the first submarine to be launched in the late 2020s. Modularity is key to the Swedes’ approach."

"The big vertical launch tubes will allow the Swedish design to launch and recover lots of different configurations of missiles, UAVs and UUVs. And, if it turns out that missiles are less valuable than other unmanned systems, it’ll be much easier to use this vertical launch space as a flexible launch bay than to try to contort weapons into torpedo-shaped items.

On top of this, the Swedes are fitting air-independent propulsion to allow the submarine to operate without surfacing for long periods of time. They’re also designing in a ‘multi-mission portal’ next to the torpedo tubes in the nose of the boat which will be large enough for the launch and retrieval of diverse mission payloads, from special-forces divers to manned and unmanned vehicles."



Online Colin P

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Offline Uzlu

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2918 on: December 19, 2019, 13:36:45 »
Quote
Quebec shipyard at the heart of the Mark Norman case poised to become federal builder

Procurement Minister Anita Anand said move is 'a critical milestone' for the National Shipbuilding Strategy

A Quebec shipyard that was once at the centre of the now-dropped criminal case against former Vice-Admiral Mark Norman is now formally in line to become the federal government's third go-to shipbuilder.

Public Services and Procurement Canada announced Thursday that Chantier Davie, located in Levis, Que., has pre-qualified for the position and could potentially join Irving Shipbuilding in Halifax, N.S., and Seaspan Shipyards, of Vancouver.

The department, in a statement, said the company will now be asked to answer a request for proposal and that will be followed by an evaluation phase, which will include an assessment of the yard's infrastructure.

Public Services and Procurement Minister Anita Anand said the announcement is "a critical milestone" for the National Shipbuilding Strategy and its ability to adapt to meet the federal government's needs.

A formal agreement is not expected to be signed until the end of next year.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/davie-shipyard-norman-1.5402285

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2919 on: December 19, 2019, 15:30:55 »
Good grief! Davie to take 20 years to build six icebreakers for CCG? 

Quote
...
C’est un contrat [when actually signed] de plusieurs milliards $ qui doit assurer du travail à l’entreprise lévisienne pendant au moins les 20 prochaines années, a affirmé le ministre Duclos...
https://www.tvanouvelles.ca/2019/12/19/chantier-davie-finalement-incluse-dans-la-strategie-navale-dottawa-1

Mark
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Offline Czech_pivo

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2920 on: December 19, 2019, 15:49:50 »
Good grief! Davie to take 20 years to build six icebreakers for CCG? 

Mark
Ottawa

Well, they did say that the agreement won't be in place until late 2020 and then they have to decide upon the requirements/specs as nothing along those lines has been discussed in any great details, so that will be 2022/3 and then figure 2/5yrs per ship because God knows that we can't have 2 ships being built at the exact sametime/pace here in Canada, and viola, 20yrs has gone by.

Offline Uzlu

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2921 on: December 19, 2019, 15:59:36 »
Good grief! Davie to take 20 years to build six icebreakers for CCG?
I assumed for at least the next twenty years, because it is going to be a lot more than six 8 000-tonne icebreakers.  There might be one or two Diefenbaker-class icebreakers, additional 8 000-tonne icebreakers after the initial six, and smaller icebreakers to replace the eight light icebreakers currently in the fleet.

And if Davie is going to be named as the third shipbuilder to build large ships for the coast guard, I think it is safe to assume that the government of Canada is going to try very hard to give Davie a steady stream of contracts to avoid the boom-or-bust cycles.  This probably means, like for Irving and Seaspan, contracts to keep Davie busy for about twenty to thirty years.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2922 on: December 19, 2019, 18:05:52 »
20-years is the generally accepted life-cycle period, so building a capability set over 20 years achieved the stability to constant(-ish) production throughout that NSS intended to establish. It’s not about the ships, it’s about the shipbuilding.  I don’t say that tongue in cheek, but pragmatically, having (begrudgingly) read the NSS documents through to understand what is being established.  I long ago accepted that physical systems to a government department (defence, coast guard, fisheries, etc.) are but one output, and not always the one at the forefront in politicians’ and bureaucrats’ minds.

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Offline JMCanada

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2923 on: December 19, 2019, 18:45:16 »
Another guess: 5-6 years to have the first one delivered, then seven icebreakers, one per year (which might be delayed a little bit), plus , after that, planned maintenance, again one per year. We arrive again to the forecasted  20-years.

My question now is ... where do you think new submarines would, eventually, be built?
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 18:48:24 by JMCanada »

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2924 on: December 19, 2019, 19:47:07 »
I think light icebreakers (CCG Type 1100) are to go to Seaspan as part of announcement this May:

Quote
...up to 16 Multi-Purpose Vessels to support a variety of missions, including light icebreaking, environmental response, and offshore search and rescue. These ships will be built by Vancouver Shipyards...

Plus these one assumes for Davie:

Quote
...competitive process with the design of a new class of smaller ships, the new Mid-Shore Multi-Mission Ship, which would complement the work of the large fleet in shallow areas and deliver mid-shore science activities [to replace CCG's Type 1050/1100]...
https://pm.gc.ca/en/news/news-releases/2019/05/22/prime-minister-announces-renewal-canadian-coast-guard-fleet

If Davie also gets the polar icebreaker lord knows how long at that will take. Surely for reasons of expedition and cost the gov't could justify getting that one ship from abroad. It was announced by Harper in 2008 for service in 2017 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/new-arctic-icebreaker-to-be-named-after-diefenbaker-1.772716). Now, maybe mid-2020s? And CCGS Louis St. Laurent has just turned 53 years old (https://www.atlanticresource.org/aora/site-area/blog/louis-s-st-laurent).

Mark
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