Author Topic: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy  (Read 854953 times)

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Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2625 on: April 16, 2019, 19:28:17 »

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2626 on: April 16, 2019, 19:39:55 »
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2627 on: April 16, 2019, 19:41:03 »
Shouldn't this go in the "Defending Canada's Arctic" thread?

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2628 on: April 16, 2019, 20:38:55 »
Arctic sovereignty hoo-hah:

1) The Cracking of the NPW Compromise: A Sign of a Conflict to Come or Tempest in a Teacup? (I'm with Prof. Exner-Pirot):
https://www.highnorthnews.com/en/sign-conflict-come-or-tempest-teacup

2) Earlier from Prof. Exner-Pirot: How to write an Arctic story in 5 easy steps
https://www.arctictoday.com/write-arctic-story-5-easy-steps/

3) And earlier post of mine: Arctic Tensions Not Really About the Region but Relations With Russia
https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2015/05/27/mark-collins-arctic-tensions-not-really-about-the-region-but-relations-with-russia/

Mark
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2629 on: April 17, 2019, 13:52:20 »
Headline rather makes on squirm--Aussies sensibly buying ship from Damen of Netherlands which is building it in Romania:

Quote
New Australian Icebreaker Receives Unique Steering System

...The icebreaker will be able to handle:

• waves up to sea state 9 (14 meters (46 feet) plus significant wave height)
• wind speed up to Beaufort 12 (hurricane)
• air temperature ranging from −30° Celsius to 45° Celsius, and
• water temperatures ranging from −2° Celsius to 32° Celsius.

She will have the capability to:

• travel at an efficient cruising speed of 12 knots, with a maximum sustained speed of 16 knots in open water
• break ice at a continuous three knots in ice of 1.65-meter (5.4-foot) thickness
• transfer personnel and cargo from the icebreaker to the stations using a range of means over water, over ice and by air, including the capability to operate and support four light helicopters or two medium helicopters
• handle, stow and transport up to 1,200 tonnes of solid cargo consisting primarily of containers and break bulk cargo, including large items of plant and equipment using the ships own cargo cranes, and
1,900,000 liters of bulk liquid cargo (Special Antarctic Blend diesel used for station operations)
• support voyages for up to 90 days, which includes the ability to remain within the Antarctic area for up to 80 days
• accommodate 117 personnel with modern services including a specialised medical facility, and
ensure a high standard of environmental compliance.

The vessel will be able to sustain multidisciplinary and concurrent science operations, and support numerous sample and data collection systems, including for sea-floor, sea-ice, sea life and atmospheric research. It will have the capability to deploy, operate and with location precision recover a range of equipment and instruments in a range of conditions...

Length overall: 160.3 meters (526 feet)
Maximum beam: 25.6 meters
Maximum draft: 9.3 meters
Displacement: 25,500 tonnes
Icebreaking: 1.65 meters at three knots
Speed: 12 knots economical, 16+ knots maximum
Range: > 16,000 nautical miles
Endurance: 90 days
Cargo fuel capacity: 1,900,000 liters / 1,671 tonnes
Container capacity: 96TEU
Cargo weight: 1,200 tonnes
Passengers: 117
Crew: 32


https://maritime-executive.com/article/new-australian-icebreaker-receives-unique-steering-system

Mark
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2630 on: April 17, 2019, 14:00:51 »
Back to the Arctic hoo-hah:

Quote
Our Dangerous Dog-Sled and Reindeer Gaps!

“Moscow is moving to claim Arctic territory as barriers between Russia and North America melt,” reported The New York Times this weekend[https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/12/world/europe/global-warming-russia-arctic-usa.html ]. The paper is referring to icebergs — apparently they are melting, something about “global warming”? — and as they crumble away, why, there’s nothing left to hold back the Red Menace:

    RESOLUTE BAY, Canada — After finishing a training drill on surviving the bitter cold, the soldiers gathered around Ranger Debbie Iqaluk to hear about an inescapable fact of life in the high Arctic: The ice is melting despite the frigid temperatures.

    And that means the Russians are coming.

    Her retelling of how she watched as an enormous iceberg fractured, just a few feet from the military base here, was riveting. It is one thing to be told constantly that the melting polar ice cap has opened up the Arctic, disappearing what used to be an impenetrable barrier between North America and Russia. It is quite another to see it firsthand.

    The iceberg took five years to melt, but by 2018 it was gone, taken over by a sea that with each year is melting earlier in the season. That has brought Russia right to Canada’s doorstep, cutting into the “Fortress North America” concept that has long comforted military planners on this side of the Atlantic Ocean.

    NATO is rushing to try to catch up. Last month, hundreds of troops from member countries and partners, including France, Norway, Finland and Sweden, joined Canadian soldiers, reservists and rangers for the Nanook-Nunalivut exercises that aimed in part to help alliance forces match Russian readiness in extreme-cold climes. (The United States sent observers but no troops this year.)...

But here’s the thing: I wish the reporters, photographers and editors involved in this could have just owned it for what it is: A lark. A travelogue, enjoyed on the government dime.

Instead, they take seriously their duty to sing for their supper. And so we have to hear a bunch of dreary, half-baked nonsense about how the ice wall is falling and the White Walkers in fur hats are on the way.

This area of Canada is so desolate that, to quote the article, “Until Russia appeared on the horizon” (!) the main work underway was “soldiers armed with ancient rifles standing guard against polar bears.”

Until Russia appeared on the horizon? How did they appear there again? Right, right, the icebergs melted — and like Tina Fey channeling Sarah Palin, we could suddenly look across a half-frozen sea, littered with dejected and emaciated polar bears, and see Russia, lookin’ right back at us. Damn them! (Does this really make sense to anyone?)

Slogging forward ever further into absurdity, the article seeks out the Defense Minister of Canada, who “in a telephone interview … made clear that the alliance had no intention of ceding the icy expanse.”

Could this be more vague? What are we not ceding exactly — the ocean? The land? The oil and gas presumably out there? (And how did that telephone interview go anyway? “Defense minister, this is The New York Times! Will you be ceding any of Canada’s icy expanse?”)

Too many questions! Onward! Mush, mush!

The article tells us that Russia is reopening military bases in the Arctic — no details of that offered, hey, it’s just The New York Times, what do you want, facts? Google it!

(So I did, here’s a typically breathless CBS News report from almost exactly two years ago in response to a Kremlin p.r. blitz about a new military base in northern Russia. CBS News takes the bait and raves uncritically about “the unveiling of the country’s crown jewel.” Crown jewel! To me, it looks like an old Holiday Inn in Fargo. But to CBS News in 2017 — in the midst of our Russiagate mass psychogenic illness — it is Russia’s crown jewel, because it provides housing for “150 troops”, some of whom may or may not be riding reindeer — I’m not kidding— and unspecified “war planes.” “For now,” the CBS News reporter concludes, “Russia’s flag seems to be firmly planted on the top of the world.” All this melodrama is for, again, a military base Russia has built on its own territory that houses 150 people, some planes, and plus-minus some reindeer. Fine, whatever, I am ready to eyeroll and move on with my life — but there’s more! “Great reporting! I’m glad we did this!” gushes Nora O’Donnell of CBS This Morning. “This is a future battlefront, the Arctic.” Co-host Charlie Rose chimes in enthusiastically, “That’s exactly what it is! The conflict with Russia is now global, every part of the Earth, including the top and the bottom.”)

And the Earth-encompassing struggle continues. As with CBS News two years ago, so with The New York Times this weekend...[read on--but we have nothing like the number if icebreakers the author says]


Tip of the hat to Bob Gould for the “dog sled gap” joke
https://medium.com/@mattbivens_34439/our-dangerous-dog-sled-and-reindeer-gaps-9e819fbbf278

Mark
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Online suffolkowner

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2631 on: April 17, 2019, 16:22:56 »
Mark (and others)

Is there an accepted range on the number of icebreakers and their capabilities that we need?
I count 15 icebreakers although 9 are Polar Class 5 and 3 with Polar Class 3 and 3 with Polar Class 2 (?)

In the pipeline

The 3 Davie refits coming online with a Polar Class of 4 plus 6 AOPS with a Polar Class of 5 and the Diefenbaker with a Polar Class of 2

Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2632 on: April 17, 2019, 17:10:21 »
As confirmed by a CCG Captain, the Russians have better charts of our arctic than we do. If Russia makes a move on our arctic bit, it will likely be done in concert with China. They will take a bite, using non-military and para-military resources, backed by the military. Bringing it back to this thread, the AOPs are very much a step in the right direction, although you will notice that other nation building similar ships for similar mission choose heavier armament. My guess that the AOPs and their crew will be eventually tossed into a situation where they are the only RCN assets in the area and will not always have aviation support. Now the AOPS supported by RCN nuclear powered subs would be a significant force to contend with. However is not happening, so we are back to an AOP's perhaps with a CCG vessel in support as the first responders to any intrusion, you want to give that Captain and crew all the resources to do that job and enough firepower to ensure that the other side does not feel tempted to push to hard. 

Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2633 on: April 17, 2019, 19:44:05 »
The RCN will never have an SSN fleet.
The AOPs is not a combat ship. There is no plan to have ice capable, combat capable ships for the RCN within the lifetime of anyone who is alive today.
Canada will almost certainly never fight a battle in the arctic or otherwise successfully deter a determined arctic resource claimant.

If we “lose” or cede the arctic, will it make any really noticeable and tangible  difference to people in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal and the south more generally? If the answer is “none”, or nothing that cannot be purchased in a product,  then don’t expect anything serious be done about the arctic.
If the answer is yes, it’s ours!!, nobody can seriously expect the Canadian political and regulatory system to function in a manner that defends it and then enables it to be likely that resources will be extracted from the arctic. There would be significant delay, cost, lawsuits and bungling and bankruptcies.

Canada should be under no illusions here: under Russian and Chinese management, the resources will be both coveted and extracted. There is hardly any reason to doubt this will happen and just about the same amount of inevitability that we won’t stop it, and cannot stop it.

Reality applied. Time for this country to understand its place in the world of now and the future.
Living the lean life

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2634 on: April 17, 2019, 19:59:45 »
Colin P, Cloud Cover: If anyone tried to commit what amounts to territorial aggression against our territory that would involve NATO and, in particular, the US which has its own direct interests and simply would not tolerate such action. There would be a real risk of conflict with the Americans leading to...? Would Russia/China be willing to run that risk for what, for some time, will remain largely quelques arpents de neige?

In any event the Russkies have plenty of glace in, and in a while under, the ocean there to keep them fully occupied without looking elsewhere. The Chinese, for their part, have far more important concerns in the East and South China Seas, the western Pacific generally, and the Indian Ocean.

This fixation on threats to territory in the Arctic is a uniquely and neurotic Canadian obsession based on no serious analysis. The real military problems there relate to its being used as an aerial (and to some extent underwater) pathway for great powers to attack each other--not what's in the region itself.
Mark
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Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2635 on: April 17, 2019, 20:11:22 »
That's the problem with the typical Canadian response: our friends will help us.  Good luck with that.
You're right it's a Canadian neurotic thing, and it's probably not worth much fuss.
The US isn't doing much about China and Russia in the Caribbean, don't think they  will be much different in practice up North unless they stake a claim themselves.
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Offline Swampbuggy

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2636 on: April 17, 2019, 20:20:22 »
All of the above being said, the AOPS could potentially see the 57mm when they’re divested from the CPF’s. Maybe PHALANX or Harpoons too, if the need existed. At that point they’d be as well equipped as any other ice capable surface vessel in terms of firepower. Subsurface would have to be dealt with by the USN or maybe an AIP RCN boat, if the technology keeps improving.

Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2637 on: April 17, 2019, 20:32:12 »
Colin P, Cloud Cover: If anyone tried to commit what amounts to territorial aggression against our territory that would involve NATO and, in particular, the US which has its own direct interests and simply would not tolerate such action. There would be a real risk of conflict with the Americans leading to...? Would Russia/China be willing to run that risk for what, for some time, will remain largely quelques arpents de neige?

In any event the Russkies have plenty of glace in, and in a while under, the ocean there to keep them fully occupied without looking elsewhere. The Chinese, for their part, have far more important concerns in the East and South China Seas, the western Pacific generally, and the Indian Ocean.

This fixation on threats to territory in the Arctic is a uniquely and neurotic Canadian obsession based on no serious analysis. The real military problems there relate to its being used as an aerial (and to some extent underwater) pathway for great powers to attack each other--not what's in the region itself.
Mark
Ottawa

Is a Chinese/Russian/someone else research/weather station planted onto land claimed by Canada such an aggression that our allies are going to help us? We don't use much of our north and people will eventually start chewing on it, likely sooner than anticipated. We are equipping our AOP's for the 1990's mentality, not the 21st century.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2638 on: April 17, 2019, 20:54:07 »
Can someone, please, move this damn discussion to the Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty thread, so we can get back to discussing Shipbuilding Strategy matters as required.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2639 on: April 17, 2019, 21:02:36 »
Colin P: Why run any such risk of riling the Eagle when one has much more important fish to freeze? Look at things from the Russian/Chinese perspective. We're not in an "Ice Station Zebra" world, for now. In any event nothing Canada on its own could do could deter any major power if it chose to risk war; that's why we have allies:
http://www.tcm.com/this-month/article/66962%7C0/Ice-Station-Zebra.html



Mark
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Mark
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Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2640 on: April 17, 2019, 21:32:33 »
Such a move may not appear logical to us, but other views have other logic and the 21st Century seems destined for interesting times and the ships we build now will see a good chunk of this new century and all that goes with it. Also with our current procurement process and recruitment you may not have that many aircraft to support arctic operations as you would like.

Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2641 on: April 19, 2019, 16:49:07 »
That's fast, although I suspect they used parts meant for the 3 rd ship in the series.

https://www.nsnews.com/news/coast-guard-ship-back-in-action-after-hitting-breakwater-1.23793489

Offline Colin P

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Online MilEME09

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2643 on: April 30, 2019, 18:19:31 »
4 tugs to replace 7, bad math in my opinion
"We are called a Battalion, Authorized to be company strength, parade as a platoon, Operating as a section"

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2644 on: April 30, 2019, 18:54:36 »
Not really bad maths.

First of all, the Firebrand and Firebird were always fire fighting vessels more than tugs, and in fact did precious little in terms of tug work. They really were only used as such exceptionally at night or on week end when the Glens were not available. So if you get four replacement tugs - each with firefighting capability - and create a rotation so one is always available in each home port, then there is no loss there.

As for having four large tugs vs. five, well we had three on the East coast because we had 12 major surface warships, to the West coast's 8. The West coast managed with two for eight ships. And that's what we are going to have on the East coast after the next round of replacement hulls (probably 8 type 26 East and 7 West - if we follow the RCN's or CAF's biased eastern view of the world, though the reverse would make more sense in today's world). The HDW are expected to require no tugs. Moreover, the new tugs are expected to be much more powerful and maneuverable than the Glen's based on the specs in the tender.

In any event, if you have a sufficient availability of smaller tugs, and with the Ville class you do, then it should not be a problem.

BTW, I am glad Ocean Industries got the contract: They are a totally unsubsidized international success story with their tugs, both in building them and operating them (they provide tug services in many places both in the St-Lawrence river system and internationally to the US and the Caribbean's.

Offline JMCanada

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2645 on: May 01, 2019, 03:34:23 »
I'm not a professional, but would dare to think that the 3-2 tugs per E-W coast might be related too to the coastline n. miles and square n.miles  to be serviced. Am I wrong?

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2646 on: May 01, 2019, 05:17:34 »
I'm not a professional, but would dare to think that the 3-2 tugs per E-W coast might be related too to the coastline n. miles and square n.miles  to be serviced. Am I wrong?

Not really, tugs are used occasionally outside the harbour usually for the odd tow of a target or to deliver a ship to Pictou or such for refit. All CO's are encouraged to use tugs if available. I would imagine when AOPS finally are accepted they will make heavy use of tugs at least initially. We don't need a large number of tugs because we don't have a large fleet.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2647 on: May 01, 2019, 10:07:23 »
This is great news, that project has been on the book for a decade or two in various forms.  Glad to see Group Ocean won it; they are a pretty impressive company and expect as long as we stick with our initial requirements this should roll out pretty smoothly.

Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2648 on: May 02, 2019, 14:34:52 »
OFSV #1 is back on track and completing sea trials, I have heard they grabbed all the bits they needed to fix her from #3 which will delay them a bit but not by much. https://www.facebook.com/sean.potter.547/posts/10155780813766741

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2649 on: May 11, 2019, 16:42:08 »
Is that icebreaker in image supposed to be for Seaspan new builds after the Diefenbreaker (whose design I think is largely done)?

Quote
Vard explores concepts for Canadian Coast Guard future fleet

Vancouver, B.C., based Vard Marine, Inc [ https://vardmarine.com/ ]. reports that the Canadian Coast Guard has awarded it an engineering services contract to explore concepts for the Coast Guard’s future fleet renewal program.

Vard says that the work scope is aligned with the company’s core competencies in tailored, fit for purpose, multi-mission ship design. It includes parametric concept design, feasibility studies and operational analysis, system design studies, trade-off analysis, and cost modeling. The work is intended to explore requirements for multiple future fleet ship types and could stretch over several years.

The contract continues a relationship between the Canadian Coast Guard and Vard Marine that began with Vard Marine designed patrol and science vessels built in the mid 1980’s and carrying on with the development of the designs for the Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel and the Polar Icebreaker.


https://www.marinelog.com/news/vard-explores-concepts-for-canadian-coast-guard-future-fleet/

Will Seaspan have any capacity to build more icebreakers at same time as it--if ever--gets around to building these CCG never never land vessels promised in 2013 by Conservatives to be built after the Diefenbreaker:

Quote
Just Announced New Canadian Coast Guard Vessels Overpriced by Factor of Five
https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2013/10/09/mark-collin-just-announced-new-canadian-coast-guard-vessels-overpriced-by-factor-of-five/

Vard Marine is subsidiary of VARD AS, owned by Fincantieri:

Quote
VARD, together with its subsidiaries, is one of the major global designers and shipbuilders of specialized vessels. Headquartered in Norway and with 9,000 employees, VARD operates nine strategically located shipbuilding facilities, including five in Norway, two in Romania, one in Brazil and one in Vietnam...
http://www.vard.com/about/Pages/default.aspx

And note the sensible way Norway has main VARD build ships for its coast guard:

Quote
Vard inks NOK 5bn deal for 3 Norwegian coast guard vessels

Norwegian shipbuilder and designer Vard has signed a new contract for the construction of three coast guard vessels for the Norwegian Coast Guard.

As informed, the value of the contract exceeds NOK 5 billion, equal to about USD 617 million.

The Norwegian government had originally announced plans for the construction of three new coast guard vessels in September 2016. Following review of offers from three competing yards, Vard Langsten was selected to continue negotiations in October 2017. The investments were approved by the country’s parliament at the beginning of June 2018, with the final negotiations having been completed and finalized in the following weeks.

Deliveries of the three vessels are scheduled from Vard Langsten in Norway in Q1 2022, Q1 2023 and Q1 2024, respectively. The hulls will be built at Vard Tulcea in Romania [emphasis added].

To be built to replace the aging Nordkapp-class coast guard vessels, the new ships are developed for worldwide operations in all weather and sea conditions, both inshore and offshore. Specially designed to withstand operations in demanding arctic areas, the new coast guard vessels will have an ice-strengthened hull and ice-class notation. With a length of 136 meters and a beam of 22 meters, the vessels feature strong ocean-going [emphasis added] capacities for long-distance transits, search-and-rescue operations, surveillance, and oil recovery.

Vard, a subsidiary of Fincantieri, has based its offer on the reference design developed by LMG Marin on behalf of Norwegian Defence Materiel Agency (NDMA).

Commenting on the recently signed contract, Mette Sørfonden, Director General of NDMA, said: “Due to national security interests, the Norwegian government decided that the competition should be restricted to Norwegian yards only [with shipyards in Romania]. Vard Group with its Vard Langsten yard was the provider that overall satisfied the defined requirements for solution and the navy and the coast guard’s needs in the best manner.”

Norwegian Defence Materiel Agency (NDMA) / Forsvarsmateriell (FMA) is an agency directly subordinate to the Royal Norwegian Ministry of Defence and its main task is to develop and modernize the Norwegian armed forces.

https://navaltoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/2017-04-03-js-0225-t5900516e-m800-x0qrvjq39-320x214.jpg
https://navaltoday.com/2018/06/25/vard-inks-nok-5bn-deal-for-3-norwegian-coast-guard-vessels/

Mark
Ottawa
« Last Edit: May 11, 2019, 16:51:16 by MarkOttawa »
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.