Author Topic: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy  (Read 917367 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline NavyShooter

    Boaty McBoatface!

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 194,736
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,291
  • Death from a Bar.....one shot, one Tequilla
Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #3025 on: April 01, 2020, 21:13:04 »
The various schools were amalgamated into "Campuses" about 4 years ago.  That was an outstanding success. 

It was such a success that when I found out I was posted out of there, I was exceedingly joyful.

Consider, a section that previously had 12 instructors including a Senior Instructor, plus a Standards cell to support it, is now down to 5 personnel including the SI, and the SI is assigned the role of being "standards" as well. 

Where a SI previously had the depth of field to assign 2 instructors per course for 4 courses in house (1x QL5, 3x QL3) which is required for safety purposes when working on electronic/electrical gear, with 3 other instructors that could be cycled in to cover off leave, illness, MATA/PATA, or sending one off to a ship to fill an empty spot.   That flexibility is now gone - there's 4 instructors - plus the SI.  You can run 2x classes, and have to call in a favour if one of your instructors is sick, has a car accident, etc.  The loss of the depth of field is...a concern.  I was told that we would CFTPO instructors up from the fleet if we were short.  I almost kept a straight face when I was told that. 

As for bad mouthing the workers at local shipyards...well, based upon my experience, I use the words "incompetence", "thievery", "unsafe", and "wilful deliberate sabotage."

If you want the specific examples, I can sit down over a coffee and detail the multiple ships I brought out of the 'local' yard and the myriad of problems with them. 

When I was offered a job at said certain local shipyard, I responded to the person who headhunted me the following:

 "I have too much pride in myself, and value my name to dear to see it on the same business card as the word "XXXXXX".

There are a few problems with the Navy, and our training system, and our support/maintenance system, and our procurement system.  In the end, the sailors who are boots on the deckplates will do the things necessary to keep our ships at sea.  As they've always done.

NS
Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer:

Offline MTShaw

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • 3,700
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 65
  • Dont believe everything you say.
Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #3026 on: April 02, 2020, 10:56:59 »
As for bad mouthing the workers at local shipyards...well, based upon my experience, I use the words "incompetence", "thievery", "unsafe", and "wilful deliberate sabotage."

If you want the specific examples, I can sit down over a coffee and detail the multiple ships I brought out of the 'local' yard and the myriad of problems with them. 

My local yard is Seaspan.  I have confidence in their ability to build quality ships. Perhaps Irving’s crap reputation is warranted. I’m to young and too late in the game to have that cynicism yet. If they’re if they’re still struggling with the fitting-out of ship three, I’ll say right here that Irving sucks.

Thanks NS for your input.  Like I said, I most certainly don’t have the history and I do appreciate the mild correction.

Michael

Offline MilEME09

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 45,405
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,046
Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #3027 on: April 02, 2020, 11:07:21 »
My local yard is Seaspan.  I have confidence in their ability to build quality ships. Perhaps Irving’s crap reputation is warranted. I’m to young and too late in the game to have that cynicism yet. If they’re if they’re still struggling with the fitting-out of ship three, I’ll say right here that Irving sucks.

Thanks NS for your input.  Like I said, I most certainly don’t have the history and I do appreciate the mild correction.

Michael

Friend of mine worked out in the yards on the west coast years ago, do not know if it was seaspan, however his opinion was that the employees and the unions were more concerned with keeping their pay cheque's then they were about doing the job right, and that's putting it mildly, exact same stuff Navyshooter mentioned was going on.
"We are called a Battalion, Authorized to be company strength, parade as a platoon, Operating as a section"

Offline Navy_Pete

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 41,850
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,026
Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #3028 on: April 02, 2020, 11:17:23 »
So what your saying is the crew stays longer on the same ship in the French navy? Jetty hooping I assume means come back from deployment, a few days off and then back to sea again? Yes that would suck. It sounds like the senior staff says yes to more things than the ships and crews can handle. I wonder if the dual crew system would work for the navy, say 48 days at sea/onboard and 48 off? You need about 2.5 crews for that per ship though, to allow for training, extended leave, medical, family etc.

No, I mean they have less junior people. Maybe it was lost in translation when I was talking to a counterpart in the French Navy, but my understanding was they don't have any killicks or below on the Mistrals, and their general crewing philosophy is different. I think they funnel in from a training fleet (or maybe smaller patrol ships).  Think it may be a lot closer (for at least the engineering side) to civilian qualifications where they roll in fully qualified to their level, whereas we do a lot of OJT.  We could make it work, but it means you are pulling folks off the current fleet where they are needed to go to sea.

Offline MTShaw

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • 3,700
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 65
  • Dont believe everything you say.
Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #3029 on: April 02, 2020, 12:37:40 »
Friend of mine worked out in the yards on the west coast years ago, do not know if it was seaspan, however his opinion was that the employees and the unions were more concerned with keeping their pay cheque's then they were about doing the job right, and that's putting it mildly, exact same stuff Navyshooter mentioned was going on.

And going back to Mark’s idealizing Australia’s program: I’m sure they have the same problems. Look at their AWD program. And I’m almost certain the American’s have the same problem.

But because of the Jobs they provide, and because Lockheed’s spreading a lot of the work on the CSC around Canada, we’ve created a self-licKing ice cream cone.

I guess I want ships that work, even if it takes longer.

Michael

Offline NavyShooter

    Boaty McBoatface!

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 194,736
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,291
  • Death from a Bar.....one shot, one Tequilla
Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #3030 on: April 02, 2020, 13:07:07 »
My local yard is Seaspan.  I have confidence in their ability to build quality ships. Perhaps Irving’s crap reputation is warranted. I’m to young and too late in the game to have that cynicism yet. If they’re if they’re still struggling with the fitting-out of ship three, I’ll say right here that Irving sucks.

Thanks NS for your input.  Like I said, I most certainly don’t have the history and I do appreciate the mild correction.

Michael



Wilful deliberate sabotage is not mild.


The decades of history here in the East Coast are not solely reflective of one yard - all of the yards seem to be more concerned about getting their money rather than producing quality. 


When a ship that's supposed to need 20,000 hours of work to re-activate needs over 100,000 - there's more than just a minor problem.


When you have to put padlocks on unoccupied compartments during the refit so that workers don't go to hide and have naps, that's more than just a minor problem.


When you have over 1000 form 1148's outstanding when you leave a 'yard, that's more than just a minor problem.


When you have two ships in a row who's blackwater system has been blocked in exactly the same spot, with welding rods and bolts hammered into the pipe...that's more than a minor problem.

When you have a crew that spends 4 months de-storing ship to the point that you're stripping every piece of visible brass, from lazy-rod covers to fire-hoses, because if you don't they'll be stolen or cut-off and stolen...that's more than a minor problem.  (Scrap brass values apparently made this worthwhile to do by someone in a certain yard.) 


The mild correction is more than just mild.  I'm hoping that perhaps the experiences I've had on multiple ships is not reflective of every shipyard in Canada, but I think their only concern is getting money from the government...not fixing our ships properly.


NS

Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer:

Offline MilEME09

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 45,405
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,046
Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #3031 on: April 02, 2020, 13:20:05 »
Unfortunately its political suicide to take the work off shore
"We are called a Battalion, Authorized to be company strength, parade as a platoon, Operating as a section"

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 160,735
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,128
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #3032 on: April 02, 2020, 14:24:34 »
I wonder if we need some "Marine Gurkha's" (Not actual Gurkha's), the British army recently got 10,000 applications for 420 positions, they managed to do their selection in Nepal in short order to select the 420 candidates who all passed their basic training. Perhaps offer X number of seagoing positions to a friendly developing country. Selections are done in that country and the prospective sailors come here for basic and trade training. After a 10 years service they can immigrate to Canada with their families (counting against immigration numbers as a whole). We get committed and motivated people. This does not address the short fall in trained people, but could quickly beef up the number of sailors available to sail, giving some space for people to take courses. Start with a small number and slowly build it up.   

Offline MilEME09

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 45,405
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,046
Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #3033 on: April 02, 2020, 14:31:15 »
I wonder if we need some "Marine Gurkha's" (Not actual Gurkha's), the British army recently got 10,000 applications for 420 positions, they managed to do their selection in Nepal in short order to select the 420 candidates who all passed their basic training. Perhaps offer X number of seagoing positions to a friendly developing country. Selections are done in that country and the prospective sailors come here for basic and trade training. After a 10 years service they can immigrate to Canada with their families (counting against immigration numbers as a whole). We get committed and motivated people. This does not address the short fall in trained people, but could quickly beef up the number of sailors available to sail, giving some space for people to take courses. Start with a small number and slowly build it up.   

Being an immigrant nation why are we not offering citizenship in exchange for service like other nations do?
"We are called a Battalion, Authorized to be company strength, parade as a platoon, Operating as a section"

Offline CloudCover

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 53,205
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,516
Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #3034 on: April 02, 2020, 18:25:41 »
Because Canadian values and all that.



Military service is not valued by Canadians or its governments.
... Move!! ...

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 160,735
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,128
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #3035 on: April 02, 2020, 18:49:30 »
Sadly sums up a lot of our problems and way solutions fail.

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 240,692
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,752
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #3036 on: April 02, 2020, 19:05:51 »
Because Canadian values and all that.



Military service is not valued by Canadians or its governments.

You, sir, just won the Internet.

At best, the CAF is viewed by most as a domestic fire brigade and at worst a bunch of thieving miscreants.

Thank you to "liberal" historians who actually think that the military's traditional role is "peacekeeping" and continue to perpetuate that myth. Cyprus is over.

Peacekeeping is something the CAF is good at - or was - because of its reputation coming out of WWII and Korea.
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline Dimsum

    West coast best coast.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 200,540
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,856
  • I get paid to travel. I just don't pick where.
Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #3037 on: April 02, 2020, 19:16:32 »
And going back to Mark’s idealizing Australia’s program: I’m sure they have the same problems. Look at their AWD program.

And their Attack-class subs, which haven't even had steel cut yet.  And before that, the Collins-class subs.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/why-australias-attack-class-submarine-program-trouble-135452

https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/australias-collins-class-submarines-enter-a-20th-year-of-trouble/
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline MarkOttawa

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 83,815
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,025
  • Two birthdays
    • The 3Ds Blog
Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #3038 on: April 02, 2020, 20:18:14 »
And their Attack-class subs, which haven't even had steel cut yet.  And before that, the Collins-class subs.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/why-australias-attack-class-submarine-program-trouble-135452

https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/australias-collins-class-submarines-enter-a-20th-year-of-trouble/

Not "idealizing" Aussies but at least they actually move their programs forward and much earlier than we do by comparison. Also willing to buy some things abroad--85% for HMAS Canberra from Navantia (https://www.navantia.es/en/news/press-releases/hmas-canberra-handed-over-to-the-royal-australian-navy/) and new icebreaker for Antarctic built by Damen in Romania (http://www.antarctica.gov.au/icebreaker)--it's when they insist on building in Oz that they have problems perhaps similar to ours.

Mark
Ottawa
« Last Edit: April 03, 2020, 11:03:17 by MarkOttawa »
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline RDBZ

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 3,050
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 98
Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #3039 on: April 03, 2020, 01:59:54 »
Not "idealizing" Aussies but at least they actually move their programs forward and much earlier than we do by comparison. Also willing to buy some things abroad--85% for HMAS Canberra from Navantia (https://www.navantia.es/en/news/press-releases/hmas-canberra-handed-over-to-the-royal-australian-navy/) and new icebreaker for Antarctic built by Damen in Romania (http://www.antarctica.gov.au/icebreaker)--it's when they insist on building in Oz that they have problems perhaps similar to ours.

Mark
Ottaw

The work completed in Spain on the LHDs and construction of the icebreaker Nuyina has been comparatively simple, though.  Building the Hobart class was an order of magnitude more complex, with the Collins class being yet another order of magnitude more difficult.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2020, 07:17:21 by RDBZ »

Offline Uzlu

  • Member
  • ****
  • 3,815
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 245
Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #3040 on: April 08, 2020, 11:51:41 »
Why the National Shipbuilding Strategy?  Canada could get less expensive ships more quickly if they are all built overseas.
Quote
One of the critical arguments against a homegrown national security industrial strategy has been the cost. It's an argument familiar from the shipbuilding context: taxpayers pay a premium when we task Canadian industry with delivering solutions, instead of turning to cheaper foreign manufacturers.

Elinor Sloan, a defence policy expert at Carleton University, said she believes the crisis will focus the public's attention on securing the critical industries and supplies the country needs in a global crisis.

"The trade-off, as we know, is that it can be more costly to build or produce at home," she said. "This crisis may engender a perspective among the public that the extra cost is worth it."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pandemic-covid-coronavirus-procurement-masks-ventilators-1.5525373

Offline MTShaw

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • 3,700
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 65
  • Dont believe everything you say.
Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #3041 on: April 08, 2020, 15:34:42 »
Why the National Shipbuilding Strategy?  Canada could get less expensive ships more quickly if they are all built overseas.https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pandemic-covid-coronavirus-procurement-masks-ventilators-1.5525373

As we have all learned through the Coronavirus is that many strategic things as possible should be built in Canada.

Strategic assets are not commodities but necessary for a nation’s survival. For reference see oil and the Middle East. Weapons are just as important.

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 160,735
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,128
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #3042 on: April 08, 2020, 16:14:03 »
Plus all is not rosy with oversea builds, just ask STQ about their new Ferry and seems some overseas warships have not fared so well when the poop hits the fan (or reinforced bow).

My guess is that with the new tugs, AOR, AOPS under construction, the CSC grinding through the design stage, that the next focus of the NSPS will be all Coast Guard. The MCDV's and Orca will have to solider on for sometime before replacement.

Offline MarkOttawa

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 83,815
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,025
  • Two birthdays
    • The 3Ds Blog
Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #3043 on: April 08, 2020, 16:24:07 »
Colin P.: And the Liberals may prefer (and see political benefit) in focusing on the warm and fuzzy, non-military, CCG.

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 160,735
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,128
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #3044 on: Yesterday at 14:08:35 »
I wonder what power capabilities our AOP's and MCDV to fit small lasers and dazzlers would be? Possibly a capacitor bank to allow x number of shots. I can imagine laser dazzlers not only to discourage boats from getting to close, but also defeat/deflect optically guided weapons and non-state actor drones.

https://news.usni.org/2020/05/22/video-uss-portland-fires-laser-weapon-downs-drone-in-first-at-sea-test?fbclid=IwAR3hO_dlFAVBEv_ylpGkoYg2toSln9DZyHWwo9--NW_DQtzTfrFlUlqWkoI