Author Topic: Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) Machine Gun  (Read 52638 times)

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Offline KevinB

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Re: Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) Machine Gun
« Reply #50 on: September 01, 2010, 17:45:44 »
Kevin,

Yes it is true that we don't use the Rolls Royce of ammunition, but as you know anything with an IVI stamp on it is pretty damned good for general Infantry use.  Certainly the Cadillac of bulk ammunition, anyway.

IMO (and we've discussed this before), that money is far better spent on more days on the range and more marksmanship training than giving a soldier more expensive ammo and having him fire one PWT per year, but I agree that there are some people who could certainly benefit from a closer-to-match and truer flight round.

It seems my comment was deleted (the truth being the first victim in war as it seems to be...)

I agree IVI is accurate ball ammo.

 My point was that is more effetive ammo was given by an ally in a warzone, it is stupid not to allow its use, especially when that ammo us used elsewhere in the CF...

I fully agree that only hits count, and I would rather see soldiers shooting 10x the number of C77 rounds as opposed to Mk262 or 70gr BrownTip - however my point above was if that ammo was given its foolish to ignore.


I still think a 7mm CTA round would be the bees knees for a Individual Combat Carbine and LMG.
'
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Offline Petamocto

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Re: Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) Machine Gun
« Reply #51 on: September 01, 2010, 18:15:17 »
I still think a 7mm CTA round would be the bees knees for a Individual Combat Carbine and LMG.

And that's the crux of the matter right there, because we don't work at individual level.

If we were 2,800 individuals running around, I would absolutely agree with you that something resembling that rifle would be the best thing to equip everyone with.

However, as simulations and real-time combat have proven, you can do a lot more killing of the enemy with a mix of overlapping capabilities than you can with a standard rifle one-size-fits-all.

Don't get me wrong though, if I were all by myself roaming around in any combat zone in the world I would certainly choose to carry something very similar to a KAC battle rifle  :skull:
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) Machine Gun
« Reply #52 on: September 01, 2010, 20:05:26 »
It seems my comment was deleted (the truth being the first victim in war as it seems to be...)'

There is no evidence of a deleted post in your recent posting history (and, as staff, I can see deleted posts if they exist).

Offline KevinB

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Re: Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) Machine Gun
« Reply #53 on: September 01, 2010, 21:19:57 »
There is no evidence of a deleted post in your recent posting history (and, as staff, I can see deleted posts if they exist).

I am a dumbass, I was posting on my laptop and work computer - and the message did not post on the laptop.  I was sure I had written a large diatribe - but while I wrote it, I forgot to hit post.


US Army ammo that the CF took then forbid use of.
 So I found a use for it working with the US Government
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Offline Petamocto

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Re: Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) Machine Gun
« Reply #54 on: September 01, 2010, 21:24:19 »
Warning!

Avert your eyes regular Army soldiers!

You are not allowed to look at the photo that has just been posted!
"Do what you feel in your heart to be right - for you'll be criticized anyway." - Roosevelt

Offline Illegio

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Re: Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) Machine Gun
« Reply #55 on: September 01, 2010, 21:39:25 »
Too late; mine eyes are forever stained with the image of verboten ammo which I must now, above all other things, possess.

...

Because forbidden things are cool.  8)
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Offline MCG

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Re: Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) Machine Gun
« Reply #56 on: September 01, 2010, 21:42:45 »
Warning!

Avert your eyes regular Army soldiers!

You are not allowed to look at the photo that has just been posted!

It's okay.  It is perfectly okay to look & envy, but don't touch it on your screen.   ;D

I still think a 7mm CTA round would be the bees knees for a Individual Combat Carbine and LMG.
I have wondered about exactly such a round myself.  I know that post WW II, the UK identified a 7 mm ammunition as suitable for controled automatic fire from the shoulder  ... but I don't know anything about the ballistics of that round & there may have been unaceptable (by today's standard) comprimises in projectile mass or muzzle velocity.

Is there merit to different calibers for rifle & carbine to LMG?  There is a certain comfort in knowing that ammunition the supply sysem pushes for one weapon can be converted into use for the other, but if this is never actually done ...

6 mm CTA for assault rifle/carbine and 7 mm for LMG?

Offline Petamocto

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Re: Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) Machine Gun
« Reply #57 on: September 01, 2010, 21:54:50 »
There is an entire spectrum of different ammos and calibres between the NATO 5.56 and 7.62.

They all have their pros and cons.  The biggest con being that we are NATO and 6, 6.5, 6.8, 7mm are not.

For the relatively small benefit of having everyone in the platoon using the same ammo, IMO it is not worth it because you are limiting the accuracy of your soldiers on rapid rate and limiting the power of your GPMGs.

You will hear some brochure talk about X ammo actually being able to outperform 5.56 or 7.62 at certain ranges, but we chose the ammo we did for a reason: it was the best over the most conditions.
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Offline KevinB

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Re: Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) Machine Gun
« Reply #58 on: September 01, 2010, 22:19:06 »
Your mistaking the weight savings of the CTA ammo, and the abilties of modern muzzle brakes and suppressors...

Of course I want to smash my face in sometimes listening to DARPA programs - but CTA is a worthwhile improvement IMHO.
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Offline Petamocto

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Re: Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) Machine Gun
« Reply #59 on: September 01, 2010, 22:25:18 »
We're a giant green monster, give us time to adapt!  We're just finally getting frang training ammo in the Reg Force.

You're preaching to the converted that some newer cool stuff exists, but I don't think any of that is worth SFA without NATO/USA making a choice in that direction first.

Until Uncle Sam abandons 5.56 and 7.62 NATO, I can not for the life of me see us doing it.
"Do what you feel in your heart to be right - for you'll be criticized anyway." - Roosevelt

Offline KevinB

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Re: Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) Machine Gun
« Reply #60 on: September 02, 2010, 07:42:20 »
My point was that IF we (I mean ABCA) adopt a new weapon, we are going to spend a metric buttload of money testing it.
 Rather than us (USA) run M4PIP and ICC, and Canada run SARP XIV to the tenthpower, the Brits run 'damn get me out of this SA80" and the Aussies run "damn get me out of this Aug" (note both their SOF entities use the C8/M4 series guns - and Canada has some crazy idea of a bullpud that everyone else is trying to get out of...)

 Why not play lets look together - determine what you need for a platform, design the round to perform to the requirements, and then design weapons.

For those who have seen Trey Knight and I on some of the TV shows and interviews, Trey makes a great analogy about NASA and programs, you don't first build the rocket and then figure out where you want to go.
 You figure out where you want to go, develope the fuel to get there and the rocket to take you.

I am of the opinion that the 70gr OTM "BrownTip" load or the 62gr SOST round would add a lot to the capabilities of the soldier with 5.56mm ammuntion.
  However that ammo is expensive currently -- BrownTip and SOST are around $1 USD / round.

But Soldier Load especially in the dismounted fight is a player.
 What if you can shed a lot of the size of the round?  A lot of the weight?
With new propellants, you can get effective muzzle velocities from some longer heavier rounds that have great downrange performance (both exterior and terminal ballistics)

 A muzzle brake allows the soldier to fire faster mutliple shots accurately, and a suppressor to cover the flash at night (improved soldier survivability in ground combat)


Of course keep in mind we are involved in both M4PIP and ICC, so while I know we can make the C8/M4 better (5,000 rds suppressed 11.5" DI gun currently - no additional lube from start of environmental endurance test), I feel its an incremental improvement, not a exponential improvement.

My 0.02 USD



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Offline Petamocto

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Re: Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) Machine Gun
« Reply #61 on: September 02, 2010, 08:43:21 »
I am fairly certain that the new version of SARP2 (broken into three parts to be managed easier) is going the direction that you're talking about.

We in ABCA certainly talk among our peers, I can personally vouch for that.

Every once in a while I'll get an e-mail that started off from a very senior officer in another town who works in a multinational environment, and after he gets to talking with his foreign peers an e-mail will filter its way down down the chain to little old me asking what Canada's view of X is.

Then I ask the people who really know what they're talking about, and I staff up a beautifully eloquent briefing note that climbs its way back up the chain.

Interestingly enough the last one I did was for an intermediate calibre.
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Offline Thucydides

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Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Petamocto

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Re: Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) Machine Gun
« Reply #63 on: September 03, 2010, 09:12:40 »
Thuc,

Great link, thank you.

As someone joked about earlier though, sadly the end result of that 16 pounds in weight savings will probably not mean 16 less pounds on the soldiers' spines, but 16 pounds of room to carry other things.

I always imagine those VC you see in movies, covering 50km at night with nothing more than a rifle, spare mag, rice pouch, flip flops, and that funny hat.  We have gone so far past the point of comfort that it's absurd now.  It's nice to see technology actually saving weight because all it has done is add weight in the past (more radios, NVGs, plates, etc).

I am a firm believer that we have made ourselves less effective, less combat ready, and easier to kill because of the weight burden.

Now that the ammo is getting sorted out though, what we need to work on is inventing a lighter water.

"Do what you feel in your heart to be right - for you'll be criticized anyway." - Roosevelt

Offline ArmyRick

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Re: Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) Machine Gun
« Reply #64 on: September 04, 2010, 14:07:58 »
Leave it to medical science. Maybe they will invent a new drug that makes the human body require only a fraction of the water it does now?

On weight reduction, I think commanders need to really start thinking about not adding more. New technology in the next ten years might make it so that our essential kit we have gotten used to gets lighter and lighter but it becomes important for commanders to realize thats not a licensce to add more kit/ammo/water.
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Offline Petamocto

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Re: Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) Machine Gun
« Reply #65 on: September 04, 2010, 15:14:03 »
AR,

You'd be impressed if you saw some of the staff work coming out of the people in charge of the soldier systems project.  There might be a perception that Ottawa officers are far removed from the realities of hardships facing modern fighters but they are fully up to speed and all of their future plans are headed toward lessening the weight burden.

Lighter ammo is just one of the steps, they are also working on lighter armour, integrated battery systems that will power everything the soldier carries, integrated comms/nav/SA products, etc.

Eventually every soldier will have a 1-pound unit that does everything an encrypted radio and GPS does in their pouch, with a screen on their wrist or rifle.
"Do what you feel in your heart to be right - for you'll be criticized anyway." - Roosevelt

Offline ArmyRick

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Re: Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) Machine Gun
« Reply #66 on: September 04, 2010, 19:12:07 »
Cool. Hope its before I have 35 years in (I have 20 now!)
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Offline Thucydides

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Re: Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) Machine Gun
« Reply #67 on: September 04, 2010, 23:00:15 »
Eventually every soldier will have a 1-pound unit that does everything an encrypted radio and GPS does in their pouch, with a screen on their wrist or rifle.

If every soldier goes to this site, they can have that right now.

(OK, no encryption, but we know how to use veiled speech)
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) Machine Gun
« Reply #68 on: September 04, 2010, 23:32:12 »
If every soldier goes to this site, they can have that right now.

(OK, no encryption, but we know how to use veiled speech)

Without encryption, that's a EW Operator's wet dream. Clear voice and position reported data. Its a great demonstration as to where our technology is at. Image the capabilities you could plug into a Rhino with the backing of a major defense research group like DARPA.

Offline Technoviking

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Re: Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) Machine Gun
« Reply #69 on: September 05, 2010, 06:59:26 »
(OK, no encryption, but we know how to use veiled speech)
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) Machine Gun
« Reply #70 on: September 05, 2010, 13:28:48 »
Thuc,I am a firm believer that we have made ourselves less effective, less combat ready, and easier to kill because of the weight burden.

I did a bit of an informal experiment with kit overseas.  The fact of the matter is that an overwealming percentage of the weight factor is in body armour and PPE.  This is compounded by the fact that our issue body armour is far more uncomfortable to wear compared to existing commercial types, increasing fatigue that much faster.  Working on small arms ammo and batteries will, of course, help, but we are still going to be plodding Robocops until something is done technologically/politically about the PPE soldiers wear.  Unfortunately, the trend is only going the other way, with additional pieces being added each year.
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Offline Matt_Fisher

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Re: Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) Machine Gun
« Reply #71 on: September 07, 2010, 14:33:34 »
Speaking from professional experience, the mil-spec CADPAT Cordura nylon is an area we could shed a few ounces by going with a lighter weight urethane coating, rather than the super heavy duty one that is on there right now.  Might not seem like a significant thing, but every ounce adds up.

Offline Nemo888

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Re: Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) Machine Gun
« Reply #72 on: November 09, 2011, 07:01:51 »
I have no idea how reliable the newer version shown is compared to the current one. But I put something like this as more of a priority than jet fighters.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/08/plastic_ammo_machine_gun/

he US Army has announced successful tests of a new, lightweight portable machine-gun which fires special plastic ammunition. The gun and ammo are so much lighter than current weapons and their brass-cased cartridges that some soldiers are suggesting that every infantryman could in future pack the sort of firepower reserved today for heavy-weapons specialists.
The new Lightweight Small Arms Technologies light machine gun (LSAT LMG) with cased telescoped ammo. Credit: US Army

The machine-gun that only weighs as much as a rifle.

"I could see a whole squad carrying it," said Specialist Brandon Smith of the US Army, having participated in the trials over the past two weeks. "You would own the battlefield."

Normally only two soldiers in each eight-man squad* carry a light machine gun (LMG, aka Squad Automatic Weapon or SAW). This shoots the same ammunition as the other troops' rifles, but it is normally fed from a long belt rather than a magazine with only 30 rounds, and the LMG is designed to be fired on full auto for sustained periods (though in short bursts only, or even its heavy barrel would soon fail due to overheating). The gunner carries a lot more ammo than his teammates, and they sometimes carry some extra for him too - the idea being that his heavy firepower will pin the enemy down in a fight, letting the others manoeuvre and win the battle.

The downside of this is that the machine-gun and its belt (nowadays generally packaged in a box fitted to the gun, to prevent it flapping about and being a pain) are heavy, so much so that the gunner is at a decided disadvantage in a close-up gunfight where he needs to aim and shoot quickly while standing up. And the total load of weapon plus lots of ammo is very heavy.

Thus most soldiers are armed with assault rifles not intended to deliver sustained automatic fire and holding less ammo. These lighter weapons are handier for close-in fighting and permit other kit to be carried.

But US military boffins at the famous Picatinny Arsenal have been working on this situation for some time. Since ammo weight and bulk is much of the problem, they have come up with a new kind of ammunition: Cased Telescoped cartridges.

In a cased telescoped round, the bullet is no longer attached to the tip of a brass case full of propellant powder. The new case is shorter, fatter and made of plastic, so weighing substantially less, and the bullet is sunk into the middle of the propellant which makes the whole round shorter - it has been "telescoped". A shorter round weighs less itself, and also means that the gun's action, feed equipment etc is smaller and thus lighter as well. It's a trick originally developed for tanks, to make the turret smaller and easier to protect.

According to the Picatinny scientists, their new LMG and a thousand rounds of its plastic-cased-telescoped ammo weigh no less than 20.4 pounds less than the current M249 (a version of which is also used by British troops) and a thousand ordinary 5.56mm brass cartridges. The new LMG shaves no less than 8.3 pounds off the 15.7-lb M249, coming in at just 7.4lb - actually lighter than a standard British SA80 assault rifle! This, perhaps, explains Specialist Smith's opinion that it would be reasonable for all soldiers to carry such weapons, rather than just heavy-weapons specialists.

Offline MCG

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Re: Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) Machine Gun
« Reply #73 on: November 09, 2011, 23:28:04 »
"I could see a whole squad carrying it," said Specialist Brandon Smith of the US Army, having participated in the trials over the past two weeks. "You would own the battlefield."
An even better idea up-gunning everybody to an LSAT LMG because it weighs the same as a current rifle - get LSAT assault rifles for current riflemen so that people are carrying less weight.

Offline KevinB

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Re: Lightweight Small Arms Technologies (LSAT) Machine Gun
« Reply #74 on: November 11, 2011, 10:31:39 »
Perhaps a more effective setup would be a 7mm CTA based on on the cartridge performance parameters of the 7x46ARC

  Less weight than 5.56mm and higher performance.


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