Author Topic: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017  (Read 229699 times)

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Offline PanaEng

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Re: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2013, 09:22:39 »
For Land Forces Central Area, policy is LFCAD 2-2-005: FIELD EMPLOYMENT OF PARTIALLY TRAINED SOLDIERS

It refers to a document I have not been able to dig up, 4985-1 (DAT 5-5-3) dated 12 April 2002.


http://lfca-jtfc.kingston.mil.ca/LFCA-JTFCHQ/Shared%20Documents/080714-UN-LFCA%20JTFC%20HQ-LFCAD%202-2-005-FIELD%20EMP%20OF%20PARTIALLY%20TRAINED%20SOLDIERS.doc

There we go, thank you!
It allows sufficient latitude for me to make a decision on how to employ them and allow them to participate in virtually every exercise throughout the training year - with sufficient supervision!

This whole thread is kind of sad in that it highlights the lack of "backbone" in our officers and Snr NCOs - we are so afraid of making a simple low-risk decision, with a "proceed with common sense" instruction...
F4k1t, I'm the officer, I made the decision, I'll live with the consequences - carry on. Go LIVE!
Now I am SAS or SWAT dude ;-)
see:
Quote from: RHFC_piper ink=topic=51916.msg617784#msg617784 date=1190404708

The 'pana" is a play on the Greek 'pan' meaning 'all' or 'encompassing' - not quite but similar to UBIQUE
some think I just misspelled "para" :-)

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2013, 09:50:37 »
The words "Fieldcraft isn't taught until BMQ-L (SQ) and therefore you would be creating a situation of potential risk to themselves and others" comes to mind.

Nothing a 10-20 minute briefing and 'max supervision' can't handle.   I learned lots of stuff being a JAFO in the Recce Tp before my BTT.  No one lost an eye, died or got lost. 

Too much 'treat with kid gloves' thinking is as bad as none of it.   :2c:
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline BinRat55

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Re: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2013, 09:51:11 »
So instead of quoting a whole bunch of "non believers" I will attempt to sum it up once.

First - Call "shenanigans" all you want, but it's entirely true. I never said it was a common practice, nor did I say it was acceptable in MY military mind, but it WAS done. During low-manning points, usually midway into HLTA, replacements are sent over VIA what we call a "TAV". The pers vetting is most often top notch, however when Force Generators go out with a "no fill" it generally gets tossed back with a "fill or justify". SOME units would rather send their OJT than justify why they have 16 Cpls and 15 of them are TCat. It happens. Nuff said.

Second - I didn't so much as take a "run" at you HUNTER, merely stated that IMHO you were wasting your energy on something that (I believe it was alluded to a few ways in this thread) a Sr NCO or Officer should have easily mad a call on - no reference needed. Sr NCO's MUST make judgment calls from time to time and have the nuts to wear the consequences when necessary (as long as that doesn't become the "usual" result...)

Clear as mud? Don't ever doubt my resolve - I got shoulders. They may hurt more now than when I was younger, but darnit, I still got 'em. ANYONE feeling like they still want to disagree with me, your option and prerogative, but please do it offline.
Never interrupt your enemy while he is making a mistake - Napoleon Bonaparte

Offline Danjanou

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Re: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2013, 10:05:14 »
Binrat I personally wasn't calling BS. I was interested in some details of the upgefucking that may have caused this.

Saw it years ago, sending an unqualified reservist to 4CMBG for REFORGER, which while not quite he same as the Sandbox was again someone not doing their job with due diligence. I found out about it in the fall after he returned to Canada and transferred to my company. I was the CSM when the Pte in question was brought to me by his Section Comd, re a pay problem. Seems he hadn't been paid Class A or B since the beginning of the summer whenhe'd been enrolled. Five months and nada, either he decided not to make waves, or had mentioned it and no one had followed up.  A little digging and a few calls and I found the reason he wasn't being paid. He wasn't enrolled  yet. ::) Did his recruit (GMT/BMQ)  and then was sent overseas ( without QL3 Inf) as a civvy.... go figure.

Incidentally he's still in , and I hope he got paid for his last tour. I know this time he was qualified for it. 8)
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2013, 10:13:08 »
Sending untrained, non BMQ qualified soldiers would be in direct contravention to;

 LFCAD 2-2-005: FIELD EMPLOYMENT OF PARTIALLY TRAINED SOLDIERS

Especially-

c.   They are not to be provided with functional weapons


In what compacity were these completely untrained soldiers serving in Afghanistan?
Were they given weapons?




EITS, I agree about the kid gloves thing.  Between fat platoon and this rule maybe we're not cultivating a strong culture of recruits.

I think the problem with this rule is that when it starts filtering down the chain of command people end up changing it on a whim. 
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Re: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2013, 10:38:13 »
Between fat unfit platoon and this rule maybe we're not cultivating a strong culture of recruits.

Little presumptuous of you...
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Offline BinRat55

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Re: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2013, 10:57:59 »

In what capacity were these completely untrained soldiers serving in Afghanistan?
Were they given weapons?

Slow down, take a breath - I never said "completely untrained". IOT deploy (even years ago) there was still training. Said training never includes career courses like QL3. It DOES include PWTIII at a minimum. Yes, they were given weapons. I trusted them completely on the range or even in a firefight. But not in my QM... I have had completely topped up-trained MCpls who shook violently when attempting to clear a 9mm for the first time.

The context here was intended for BMQ(L) training - SQ (Soldier Qualification), not friggin Bill Murray in "Stripes"!!
Never interrupt your enemy while he is making a mistake - Napoleon Bonaparte

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2013, 11:12:04 »
I have had completely topped up-trained MCpls who shook violently when attempting to clear a 9mm for the first time.

I was at a HQ, and was part of range staff yearly.  We had a new G3 Ops posted in and while trying to explain to him the...level of....trg/ability...the avg pers in the HQ had WRT to rangework, etc...a MWO/CPO2 rank level pers stuck her head in the door and said "Sir, the grenade TOETs tonight, a few ppl were wondering if those are done with live grenades or the fake ones".  There was a few seconds of silence, and then one of the WOs in our group looked at the G3 Ops and said "and there is your audience sir".    :warstory:

That night while conducting refreshers/TOETs, I had a MCpl who wore 2 rows of ribbons (4 UN tours) shaking at the thought of holding an inert/dummy grenade.   ::)
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #58 on: April 25, 2013, 11:15:53 »
I have had completely topped up-trained MCpls who shook violently when attempting to clear a 9mm for the first time.



Ha, that's exactly what happens to me when I try to claw and bite my way through the DRIMIS training modules.
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Offline BinRat55

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Re: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #59 on: April 25, 2013, 11:21:39 »
Aww now you've gone and said the "D" word.  :facepalm: Profanity is not allowed on this site. I quit!!
Never interrupt your enemy while he is making a mistake - Napoleon Bonaparte

Offline Towards_the_gap

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Re: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #60 on: April 25, 2013, 17:58:30 »
Slow down, take a breath - I never said "completely untrained". IOT deploy (even years ago) there was still training. Said training never includes career courses like QL3. It DOES include PWTIII at a minimum. Yes, they were given weapons. I trusted them completely on the range or even in a firefight. But not in my QM... I have had completely topped up-trained MCpls who shook violently when attempting to clear a 9mm for the first time.

The context here was intended for BMQ(L) training - SQ (Soldier Qualification), not friggin Bill Murray in "Stripes"!!

Gotcha, makes more sense.

What job were they doing if I may ask? Surely aside from weapon handling their skill level would have been on par with the guy who assisted the guy driving the s****er truck. Who was so desperate for live bodies that they needed a soldier with BMQ only?

Offline 2ndChoiceName

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Re: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #61 on: June 08, 2014, 18:41:36 »
Does anyone know why the Res F BMQ-L is now only something like 16 days? And now you no longer actually throw grenades, learn C6, and some other stuff?

Does anyone know the rationale behind this? Obviously budget cuts but it seems like at the very least the training a soldier gets on BMQ-L are essential skills for his whole career, and it seems foolhardy to cut short such essential training.

Can I expect these courses to get more and more rudimentary as the years go by?

Offline C.G.R

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Re: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #62 on: June 08, 2014, 19:13:38 »
This is the first ive heard of that, source?

Don't outsmart your common sense.

Offline 2ndChoiceName

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Re: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #63 on: June 08, 2014, 20:29:38 »
I'm scheduled for a BMQ-L from 29 July to 15 August, guys on my course left for a BMQ-L that is also like 15 or 16 days.

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Re: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #64 on: June 08, 2014, 21:04:26 »
Yes BMQ-L PRes is now 12 training days.....
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #65 on: June 08, 2014, 21:08:23 »
Is the goal to make reservists useless for everything involving soldiering except filling sandbags in a domop?

Next thing I'll hear is that the PRes Infantry DP1 won't teach section attacks...  :facepalm:

Online Hamish Seggie

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Re: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #66 on: June 08, 2014, 21:25:22 »
Is the goal to make reservists useless for everything involving soldiering except filling sandbags in a domop?

Next thing I'll hear is that the PRes Infantry DP1 won't teach section attacks...  :facepalm:

Tell me why a musician (example only)needs to fire a C 6? If they deploy outside Canada, presumably on an operation that requires them to fire a C6, they will be trained on pre deployment trg.
Firing 100 rounds from a C6 in the light role, then never touching it again is a waste of time and ammo.
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Offline 2ndChoiceName

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Re: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #67 on: June 08, 2014, 21:33:45 »
Quote
Tell me why a musician (example only)needs to fire a C 6? If they deploy outside Canada, presumably on an operation that requires them to fire a C6, they will be trained on pre deployment trg.
Firing 100 rounds from a C6 in the light role, then never touching it again is a waste of time and ammo.

Res F band members in my unit at least, only have to do BMQ.

I can kind of understand it for non combat arms trades, but at the very least I think combat arms trades should still get the full BMQ-L.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #68 on: June 08, 2014, 21:36:50 »
........ they will be trained on pre deployment trg.
Firing 100 rounds from a C6 in the light role, then never touching it again is a waste of time and ammo.

Always a frightening experience.
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Offline LunchMeat

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Re: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #69 on: June 08, 2014, 21:51:55 »
From what has been heard in 41 CBG...

Note: HEARD

Part Time courses: grenades will stay, range quals for C6, C9 Carl G and LAW removes.

Full Time: all components remain.
"The most important six inches on the battlefield is between your ears.” ~General James "Mad Dog" Mattis, USMC

Online Hamish Seggie

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Re: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #70 on: June 08, 2014, 21:54:38 »
Res F band members in my unit at least, only have to do BMQ.

I can kind of understand it for non combat arms trades, but at the very least I think combat arms trades should still get the full BMQ-L.

Infantry will take the complete weapons package on DP 1, so why waste time and ammo on BMQ?

Besides, employing the C6 is a combination of tactical skill (how it's used)and technical (weapons drills) skills. The C6 is not a weapon I'd give to a brand new DP1 qualified infantry man. But I digress.

Sorry.....
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #71 on: June 08, 2014, 21:57:32 »
From what has been heard in 41 CBG...

Note: HEARD

Part Time courses: grenades will stay, range quals for C6, C9 Carl G and LAW removes.

Full Time: all components remain.

Thats far different than removing the components all together, and makes a little bit more sense. I don't see how it saves all this time though, C6/C9 is one day, grenades one day, and LAW another. Is Carl G on the BMQ-L? I taught one last summer and we didn't run anything about the Carl G. Perhaps it was a lack of weapons systems, dunno.

Jim: Absolutely, thats why you guys have/had a full course for machine gun.

Offline 2ndChoiceName

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Re: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #72 on: June 08, 2014, 22:09:12 »
Quote
Infantry will take the complete weapons package on DP 1, so why waste time and ammo on BMQ?

Infantry will still get it, but other combat arms trades won't, like arty, armour, and engineers, who still have a very good chance of having to use those weapons.

I'm sure there's very little you would trust a brand new private with, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't know how to use it.

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Re: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #73 on: June 08, 2014, 22:16:24 »
Infantry will still get it, but other combat arms trades won't, like arty, armour, and engineers, who still have a very good chance of having to use those weapons.

I'm sure there's very little you would trust a brand new private with, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't know how to use it.

They other Cbt arms will get the trg, just not on BMQ. And yes, I agree they should know how to use the weapons available but teaching them on BMQ  in is a waste of time and ammo.
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Offline 2ndChoiceName

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Re: BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017 [Merged]
« Reply #74 on: June 08, 2014, 22:29:26 »
Quote
They other Cbt arms will get the trg, just not on BMQ.

Where have you heard that we will get this training? Are you saying that training will be conducted in the units?