Author Topic: Acting lacking MCpl in charge of a section with qualified MCpl's  (Read 26187 times)

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Offline Veovius

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I wasn't sure where to post this, so I threw it in here.

Can someone explain to me what Acting/Lacking means, and how it relates to rank and pay?  I'm asking from an MP point of view, but I thought there may be other trades that use it.  Thanks!

Offline PMedMoe

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Re: Acting/Lacking?
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2010, 09:00:50 »
Acting/Lacking means you have been promoted to a rank for which you lack the actual qualification for.  It doesn't effect pay unless there is Spec pay involved.

For example:

MCpl Bloggins is not PLQ qualified, so he is considered an Acting/Lacking MCpl until he completes the PLQ course.  He still gets paid as a MCpl.

Sgt X is a PMed Tech without a 6A course (required for Spec pay).  He is considered Acting/Lacking Sgt and gets standard Sgt's pay until completion of the 6A course.

Clear as mud?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 16:46:22 by PMedMoe »
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Offline Veovius

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Re: Acting/Lacking?
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2010, 14:47:40 »
I think so...
So would an MP in training be a Cpl, but only get standard Cpl pay until he finishes his/her QL3 trade course?

Offline just me...

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Re: Acting/Lacking?
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2010, 15:05:04 »
You have to have your QL5 for spec pay in the MP trade now, so you'll be receiving standard Cpl pay.

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Re: Acting/Lacking?
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2010, 15:57:15 »
You are only also allowed to be missing one of the items required for substantive promotion to the next higher rank.
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Re: Acting/Lacking?
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2010, 16:40:39 »
You are only also allowed to be missing one of the items required for substantive promotion to the next higher rank.

The only exception being A/Cpl as that rank is considered uncontrolled.
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Re: Acting/Lacking?
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2010, 17:43:24 »
Now you guys got him really confused ;D
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Offline Veovius

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Re: Acting/Lacking?
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2010, 01:07:39 »
Ohh boy.....

I suppose I need to find out what the QL5 is for MPs, and when you get to take that.

So:
Private pay --> BMQ through SQ
Cpl pay --> QL3 through QL5?
Cpl Spec pay --> after QL5?

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Acting/Lacking?
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2010, 01:14:04 »
Hi Veovius. You probably don't recognize me, but I'm the voice of reason.

Since you don't even start recruit training until 2011, you may want to take a deep breath or two before too getting wound up about Spec Pay.

Your call of course   ;)

Offline Veovius

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Re: Acting/Lacking?
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2010, 01:29:05 »
I think I remember that voice...usually right before I do something stupid ;)

The reason I'm asking here is that I've asked several different people, and got several different answers.  Two were serving MPs, and one was a Lieutenant that gave us a briefing about the MP trade on my MPAC.  I think he said that we didn't get corporal hooks for about 2 years, but everyone else had some variation on either being insta-corporals after BMQ, or getting promoted before QL3 and getting backpay to your start date!  As inclined as I am to believe the Lt., I've never heard that repeated again by anyone else.  I was hoping someone here would have a definite answer.  I hope that clarifies things from my end.

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Acting/Lacking?
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2010, 01:36:42 »
Ah...well, there's your problem.....you asked a lieutenant; perhaps worse, you listened to a lieutenant   ;D

Offline Veovius

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Re: Acting/Lacking?
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2010, 02:06:53 »
To be fair, he was mustanged from the infantry :)

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Re: Acting/Lacking?
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2010, 02:08:32 »
He's an infantry officer dude.

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Offline Veovius

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Re: Acting/Lacking?
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2010, 02:09:29 »
Sorry I should clairify... He was infantry, got offered a commission, and became an MP Officer.  He's been doing that for 4 years now.

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Re: Acting/Lacking?
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2010, 02:10:05 »
Good recovery  ;D.

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Offline just me...

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Re: Acting/Lacking?
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2010, 07:24:06 »

The reason I'm asking here is that I've asked several different people, and got several different answers.  Two were serving MPs, and one was a Lieutenant that gave us a briefing about the MP trade on my MPAC.  I think he said that we didn't get corporal hooks for about 2 years, but everyone else had some variation on either being insta-corporals after BMQ, or getting promoted before QL3 and getting backpay to your start date!  As inclined as I am to believe the Lt., I've never heard that repeated again by anyone else.  I was hoping someone here would have a definite answer.  


Here's your definitive answer....from a serving MP.  You WILL be promoted to acting/lacking Corporal upon graduation from your BMQ at St. Jean.   You WILL NOT receive spec pay until you get your QL5 qualification.......clear as mud?

Offline garb811

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Re: Acting/Lacking?
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2010, 17:13:11 »

Here's your definitive answer....from a serving MP.  You WILL be promoted to acting/lacking Corporal upon graduation from your BMQ at St. Jean.   You WILL NOT receive spec pay until you get your QL5 qualification.......clear as mud?
To muddy the waters even further...this is true unless you are unable to take your QL5 in the time period you normally would have received it due to the needs of the service.  I have only ever seen this happen due to pers deploying on Operations.  In this specific instance you will be granted Spec Pay effective the day you would have graduated from the QL5 course you would have been scheduled to attend had you not been deployed as embers will not be disadvantaged due to reasons beyond their control.  The caveat to that is you fail the QL5 or don't go on the next QL5 you are available for, your spec pay is forfeit and you pay it all back.

Offline Veovius

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Re: Acting/Lacking?
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2010, 10:15:09 »
MP811: Thank you!  Crystal clear....until I read Garb's post.

Garb811: Oh great...  What is the QL5, and when are you supposed to take that?  Now I'm asking out of curiosity's sake :)

Offline garb811

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Re: Acting/Lacking?
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2010, 18:57:14 »
The QL5 is your "journeyman" course, at which point you are expected to be able to operate independently and act as a coach officer to new MPs.  This is the course which formally qualifies you for the rank of Cpl, at which time the Acting/Lacking is dropped.  Normally you take this about 2-2.5 years after taking your QL3. 

Offline Veovius

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Re: Acting/Lacking?
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2010, 04:31:37 »
Gotcha.  Actually, that explains why the Lt. said about 2 years, and why everyone else said right away.

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Re: Acting/Lacking?
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2010, 05:13:15 »
To muddy the waters even further...this is true unless you are unable to take your QL5 in the time period you normally would have received it due to the needs of the service.  I have only ever seen this happen due to pers deploying on Operations.  In this specific instance you will be granted Spec Pay effective the day you would have graduated from the QL5 course you would have been scheduled to attend had you not been deployed as embers will not be disadvantaged due to reasons beyond their control.  The caveat to that is you fail the QL5 or don't go on the next QL5 you are available for, your spec pay is forfeit and you pay it all back.

See, there is a problem with the system. How is a member disadvantaged by not getting spec pay before he is actually qualified? I think they are more disadvantaged if they get paid the money, and if/when something goes wrong they have to pay it all back. Why not do like most officer trades where members don't get promoted until they get the course completed, then their rank and pay is made retroactive.

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Re: Acting/Lacking?
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2010, 05:32:05 »
See, there is a problem with the system. How is a member disadvantaged by not getting spec pay before he is actually qualified? I think they are more disadvantaged if they get paid the money, and if/when something goes wrong they have to pay it all back. Why not do like most officer trades where members don't get promoted until they get the course completed, then their rank and pay is made retroactive.

Why not? Because that would mean someone with a brain would have to run the system  ::)
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Offline ARMY_101

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Acting lacking MCpl in charge of a section with qualified MCpl's
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2013, 12:36:34 »
What - precisely - is the definition of an Acting/Lacking promotion now that the CDS has released this CANFORGEN:

Quote from: CANFORGEN 013/13
PROMOTION OF P RES NCMS WITHOUT LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION

UNCLASSIFIED


REFS: A. CFAO 49-5 CAREER POLICY - NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBER - PRIMARY RESERVE

B. CF MIL PERS INSTR 04/08 - NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBER ADVANCED PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT (NCMAPD)

C. CF MIL PERS INSTR 02/06 - PRIMARY LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION



A DIFFERENCE EXISTS BETWEEN P RES AND REG F PROMOTION ELIGIBILITY PREREQUISITES INSOFAR AS LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATIONS ARE CONCERNED. WHILE PROMOTION TO ACTING RANK IS PERMITTED IN THE REG F WITHOUT THE ASSOCIATED LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION, IT IS SPECIFICALLY PRECLUDED AS A P RES PRACTICE AT REF A, PARA 8


REFS B AND C GIVE PRIORITY ONE STATUS FOR COURSE LOADING TO NCMS WHO ARE PROMOTED TO ACTING RANK (LACKING LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION). SINCE P RES NCMS CANNOT BE PROMOTED WITHOUT THIS QUALIFICATION, THEY CAN BE CONSIDERED NO HIGHER THAN PRIORITY 2 CANDIDATES. RECOGNIZING THAT THE NCMPD PROGRAMS DELIVERED IAW REFS B AND C ARE IDENTICAL FOR REG F AND P RES NCMS, TO REMOVE THIS DISPARITY IN COURSE LOADING AND CAREER POLICIES, P RES AND REG F POLICIES WILL BE HARMONIZED WRT LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATIONS AND ELIGIBILITY FOR PROMOTION


ACCORDINGLY, THE PRACTICE DESCRIBED AT REF A PARA 8 IS DISCONTINUED AND THE FOLLOWING PRACTICE IS NOW AUTHORIZED: QUOTE TO MEET SERVICE REQUIREMENTS THE PROMOTION AUTHORITY MAY, IN RESPECT OF PROMOTION TO THE NEXT HIGHER RANK, WAIVE EITHER THE TIME OR OCCUPATION QUALIFICATION PREREQUISITE BUT NOT BOTH. THE LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION MAY BE WAIVED PROVIDED TIME AND OCCUPATION QUALIFICATION PREREQUISITES ARE MET UNQUOTE

PROMOTION AUTHORITIES SHALL EXERCISE DISCRETION IN THE APPLICATION OF THIS POLICY AMENDMENT. STRONG CONSIDERATION SHALL BE GIVEN TO REQUIRING COMPLETION OF THE DISTANCE LEARNING PORTION OF THE LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION COURSE BY THE MEMBER PRIOR TO FILLING THE HIGHER RANKED POSITION

THE NEW DAOD 5511 SERIES COVERING THIS POLICY CHANGE IS EXPECTED IN DUE COURSE

SIGNED BY GEN T.J. LAWSON, CDS

Does Acting/Lacking occur when any of the above-noted requirements are not met (i.e. time OR leadership qualification OR MOC qualification), or would someone being promoted under this CANFORGEN be AWSE?  What exactly defines Acting/Lacking?

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Re: Definition of Acting/Lacking
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2013, 12:43:05 »
You need to meet ALL the "prerequisites" and if you don't and you are promoted, then it is considered "Acting/Lacking".

The CANFORGEN removes the "hard" requirement for Primary Reserve personnel to have met ALL the prerequisites prior to being promoted.  Previously in the Reserves, if you didn't meet ALL the prerequisites, then you could NOT be promoted.
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Offline ARMY_101

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Re: Definition of Acting/Lacking
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2013, 12:54:02 »
You need to meet ALL the "prerequisites" and if you don't and you are promoted, then it is considered "Acting/Lacking".

Is there a specific ref that states this? CMP 20/04, CFAOs, DAODs... none seem to define what Acting/Lacking is, other than to say that members may, in certain circumstances, be promoted Acting/Lacking.

What differentiates A/L from AWSE, for example?