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6 Jan 2020 U.S. Events (Split from A Deeply Fractured US)

KevinB

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New propaganda tools:



🍻
I will say -- "he" spams my email 4-5 times again, and the activities make a Republican wonder what's the point.
I'm thinking Voting None of the Above is a better choice these days - and randomly selecting a citizen at random from a cross country lottery would be a better and more inclusive choice.
 

Remius

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Actually Felons can vote now thx to Obama.
As well Felons can also petition to get their firearms rights back - generally only non violent felons though.

I've intentionally stayed out of this one here since my return - but lets be honest -- it wasn't "thousands" it was a hundred or so morons who made the rest look bad.
I mean how could this happen since "everyone" loves #notmypresidentBiden and he had the largest turn out for an election ever - even more than President Obama...


I don't condone the violence that occurred at the Capital - but in the interest of Justice - I'd also like to see all the BLM and ANTIFA charged with their attacks on the various Federal Building and personnel that happened earlier in the summer.
Now there - you can find your thousands of insurrectionists...
Well according to this #SeditionInsiders there are 1899 people identified as being in the building. 454 of those have been arrested so far. So a bit more than a “hundred or so”. Apparently it’s quite a few more morons.
 

daftandbarmy

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I will say -- "he" spams my email 4-5 times again, and the activities make a Republican wonder what's the point.
I'm thinking Voting None of the Above is a better choice these days - and randomly selecting a citizen at random from a cross country lottery would be a better and more inclusive choice.

Coincidentally, there is a name for that type of governance approach :)

Sortition​

In governance, sortition (also known as selection by lottery, selection by lot, allotment, demarchy, stochocracy, and aleatoric democracy ) is the selection of political officials as a random sample from a larger pool of candidates.[1] Sortition is generally used for filling individual posts or, more usually in its modern applications, to fill collegiate chambers.[citation needed] The system intends to ensure that all competent and interested parties have an equal chance of holding public office. It also minimizes factionalism, since there would be no point making promises to win over key constituencies if one was to be chosen by lot, while elections, by contrast, foster it.[2] In ancient Athenian democracy, sortition was the traditional and primary method for appointing political officials, and its use was regarded as a principal characteristic of democracy.[3]

Today, sortition is commonly used to select prospective jurors in common law systems and is sometimes used in forming citizen groups with political advisory power.[4]

 

KevinB

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Well according to this #SeditionInsiders there are 1899 people identified as being in the building. 454 of those have been arrested so far. So a bit more than a “hundred or so”. Apparently it’s quite a few more morons.
Yes a partisan website that is dedicated to fear mongering and trolling pro Trump people, I tend to disbelieve those sorts of things.


However even if that was a true number, it's a fairly small relationship to the size of the actual crowd - the permit was amended to allow for 30k, and it went over that before the violence occurred, and was estimated to be in excess for 45k.
The arial footage is all locked up - but just doing some scans of the various open source pictures - its clear it was WELL over 45k.

I know a number of folks who went - who did a U turn when some folks decided to take a left turn from Lawful Assembly to Causing a Disturbance or Worse. Several of them (Fed Employees) went through a wringer on it - and didn't endear anyone to the zeal that some in DoJ are "investigating" this.

No I didn't go, I tend not to go to DC if I can help it these days as my DC carry privilege (under HR218) ended when I turned in my badge, and I personally dislike crowds (and most people).
 
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Remius

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Yes a partisan website that is dedicated to fear mongering and trolling pro Trump people, I tend to disbelieve those sorts of things.


However even if that was a true number, it's a fairly small relationship to the size of the actual crowd - the permit was amended to allow for 30k, and it went over that before the violence occurred, and was estimated to be in excess for 45k.
The arial footage is all locked up - but just doing some scans of the various open source pictures - its clear it was WELL over 45k.

I know a number of folks who went - who did a U turn when some folks decided to take a left turn from Lawful Assembly to Causing a Disturbance or Worse. Several of them (Fed Employees) went through a wringer on it - and didn't endear anyone to the zeal that some in DoJ are "investigating" this.

No I didn't go, I tend not to go to DC if I can help it these days as my DC carry privilege (under HR218) ended when I turned in my badge, and I personally dislike crowds (and most people).
Sure. But you can check the DOJ site here on those charged Capitol Breach Cases

and here is more information from the FBI site. Capitol Violence | Federal Bureau of Investigation

My point is that it was more than just hundred or so. Significantly more. 638 charged as of aug 30th with more to come I’m sure,

I have no doubt the percentage of trump supporters that committed those crimes and breached the capitol is small in comparison to the actual crowd size. That does not mean it was insignifiant.
 

KevinB

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Sure. But you can check the DOJ site here on those charged Capitol Breach Cases

and here is more information from the FBI site. Capitol Violence | Federal Bureau of Investigation

My point is that it was more than just hundred or so. Significantly more. 638 charged as of aug 30th with more to come I’m sure,

I have no doubt the percentage of trump supporters that committed those crimes and breached the capitol is small in comparison to the actual crowd size. That does not mean it was insignifiant.
Not insignificant - but still less than the BLM and ANTIFA folks who blockaded and attempted to burn several Federal buildings (and Federal LEOs) earlier that year -- also no officers where shot at the Capital or fire bombed - yet there a tons of non LEO folks dedicated to getting them...


Hardly equal justice under the law.

So the third party websites about the events inside the Capital to me are simply scumbag hypocrites who can burn along with anyone who enter the Capital for violence or other nefarious purposes.
 
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Remius

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Not insignificant - but still less than the BLM and ANTIFA folks who blockaded and attempted to burn several Federal buildings (and Federal LEOs) earlier that year -- also no officers where shot at the Capital or fire bombed - yet there a tons of non LEO folks dedicated to getting them...


Hardly equal justice under the law.

So the third party websites about the events inside the Capital to me are simply scumbag hypocrites who can burn along with anyone who enter the Capital for violence or other nefarious purposes.
Why hardly equal Justice under the law? 14000 BLM arrests in 2020.

I have no issues with anyone helping to catch the morons of Jan 6th. If it leads to their arrests more power to them.

either way I always find that people who minimise what happened on Jan 6th always point to BLM as if they are related somehow. Don’t get me wrong, violent BLM protests are just as bad but are at the core different events involving different issues.

“Trump supporters violently breach Capitol”.

yeah but BLM…

neither should involve whataboutisms.
 

KevinB

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Why hardly equal Justice under the law? 14000 BLM arrests in 2020.
Source?
Charges?
Convictions?


I have no issues with anyone helping to catch the morons of Jan 6th. If it leads to their arrests more power to them.
My problem with a lot of the "vigilante" sights is they have posted a lot of info on people who have a presumption of innocence.
People not even involved with the breach of the capital have been identified - and their personal information shared on line.
Simply because they attended a Trump Rally -- and then you have some Democratic Congressional Reps saying in public that they will pay.


either way I always find that people who minimise what happened on Jan 6th always point to BLM as if they are related somehow. Don’t get me wrong, violent BLM protests are just as bad but are at the core different events involving different issues.
A friend of mine (Fed LEO) was shot at one of them -- now he is fine - but no one made such an intensive effort to find the perpetrators. I know several others who where Molotov cocktailed - one in the guvvy Suburban - and two in a Fed Courthouse.
While the breach of the Capital is significant - it shows the discrepancy of levels of interest in locating and prosecuting is why I feel that most people on the Right of the issue feel that despite the different issues one can draw parallels and incongruence.

“Trump supporters violently breach Capitol”.
I think breach incorporates violence by nature - saying violently breach is just inflammatory -- how you do peacefully breach something?
yeah but BLM…

neither should involve whataboutisms.
 
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Remius

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Source?
Charges?
Convictions?



My problem with a lot of the "vigilante" sights is they have posted a lot of info on people who have a presumption of innocence.
People not even involved with the breach of the capital have been identified - and their personal information shared on line.
Simply because they attended a Trump Rally -- and then you have some Democratic Congressional Reps saying in public that they will pay.



A friend of mine (Fed LEO) was shot at one of them -- now he is fine - but no one made such an intensive effort to find the perpetrators. I know several others who where Molotov cocktailed - one in the guvvy Suburban - and two in a Fed Courthouse.
While the breach of the Capital is significant - it shows the discrepancy of levels of interest in locating and prosecuting is why I feel that most people on the Right of the issue feel that despite the different issues one can draw parallels and incongruence.


I think breach incorporates violence by nature - saying violently breach is just inflammatory -- how you do peacefully breach something?

there are plenty of articles and sources that show numerous BLM arrests.






Now a lot of those are misdemeanours, local and state charges. But 300 have been charged with federal offenses according to the DO


So people are being arrested and charged with a variety of charges and crimes. The perception that nothing is being done about BLM protesters is false. Is the condemnation the same? Not really but the events are not the same. But they are being prosecuted.

I use Breach because that is what is on the FBI site. And it was violent. I am avoiding insurrection as it seems to inflame the conversation and some people take offense to certain words being used. Breach can be used in a variety of non violent situations. A baby has breached a birth canal, giving away my password is a breach of security, whales breach water, a breach of confidence, a breach of protocol etc etc.

your point about vigilante websites is well taken. But the FBI released those pics and asked for the public to help identify them. But yes, those sorts of things can get out of hand.
 

KevinB

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Breach in terms of gaining access to a property/site - is a violent entry.


One point about the DoJ website - they have a rather nasty habit of dumping all arrests and charges for a period in those summaries.
Based on first hand knowledge - several of those had zero to do with any of the protests, as a number are related to USMS Violent Fugitive Task Force actions, that where conducted on outstanding Federal Warrants, as well as several other non related arrests.

From the page:
Approximately 35 individuals have been charged with assaulting a law enforcement officer and related offenses. One of these cases was charged in Massachusetts; the rest of these individuals were charged in Oregon. The assaults have targeted local and federal law enforcement officers. In Portland, a man is alleged to have approached a U.S. Marshals Deputy from behind and struck the deputy in the upper back, neck, and shoulder with a wooden baseball bat; another man, allegedly assaulted a Deputy U.S. Marshal with an explosive device. In Boston, a man allegedly shot at least 11 times toward officers, including a deputized federal officer.

34 of those in Oregon, where over 150 people attempted to burn out several Officers - the shootings in Oregon was not proceeded with either.
Given the FBI has surveillance footage of the incidents, I wonder why they didn't release all those to the public?
 

Remius

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Breach in terms of gaining access to a property/site - is a violent entry.


One point about the DoJ website - they have a rather nasty habit of dumping all arrests and charges for a period in those summaries.
Based on first hand knowledge - several of those had zero to do with any of the protests, as a number are related to USMS Violent Fugitive Task Force actions, that where conducted on outstanding Federal Warrants, as well as several other non related arrests.

From the page:
Approximately 35 individuals have been charged with assaulting a law enforcement officer and related offenses. One of these cases was charged in Massachusetts; the rest of these individuals were charged in Oregon. The assaults have targeted local and federal law enforcement officers. In Portland, a man is alleged to have approached a U.S. Marshals Deputy from behind and struck the deputy in the upper back, neck, and shoulder with a wooden baseball bat; another man, allegedly assaulted a Deputy U.S. Marshal with an explosive device. In Boston, a man allegedly shot at least 11 times toward officers, including a deputized federal officer.

34 of those in Oregon, where over 150 people attempted to burn out several Officers - the shootings in Oregon was not proceeded with either.
Given the FBI has surveillance footage of the incidents, I wonder why they didn't release all those to the public?

I can’t speak to individual cases. And to be honest researching this myself is getting tedious.

I can’t be sure what is active or not or what pics might have been published at the time that might now be down.

Does the FBI actually have footage of those incidents? And is it useful footage? Do they need to release it to the public or do they have enough to go on? Is it an evidence thing? There could be a myriad of reasons if they are in fact not proceeding if they even can, I don’t know. I’m theory crafting.

My points in this last discussion was to refute that Jan 6th Capitol Breach by trump supporters was more than just a hundred or so instigators.

we are now going down a bit of a BLM rabbit hole but The FBI did ask and is still seeking the Public’s help in finding instigators from the violent incidents at BLM riots and protests. Seeking Information on Individuals Inciting Violence During First Amendment-Protected Peaceful Demonstrations | Federal Bureau of Investigation

But as I said. These are separate incidents with different reasons, motivations etc. But we always seems to bring one up when the other gets looked at with any scrutiny.

But despite all of that, I do agree that one incident over the other gets a different treatment in media. But that is another subject.
 

daftandbarmy

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Have to get the last couple of 'sour grapes' rallies in before the snow flies, I guess:

Source: Police prepare for potential violence at far-right rally in DC​

Erin Burnett Out Front

CNN's Donie O'Sullivan talks to Trump supporters as police prepare for the possibility of armed protesters at a far-right rally in support of the Capitol rioters.


 

Brad Sallows

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Everything is far-right these days, it seems. Trump's support is broader than that.

If we were to divide the political spectrum into 20 equally broad segments, I wonder how many the "far-right" would occupy.
 
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