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A answer to Robert Scott

Michael Dorosh

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BUT SERIOUSLY - there are very, very few junior officers who get as much respect as a competent career warrant officer. I shouldn‘t make fun because you have no way of knowing this, but kid, you have a lot to learn about the world.

My best friend just commissioned after 15 years as a corporal in both the reserves and the Regular Force (infantry and supply tech). His perspective on junior officers vs. career NCOs is not a unique one, but he could probably assure you that a junior subaltern is really only a private with more responsibilities. Certainly no one looks up to them, and I kind of get the impression there is nothing lower in the officer‘s mess than a new subaltern. I actually think private soldiers get treated better their first year or two than most newly commissioned officers.

There are many officers I respect, and most of the junior officers I‘ve met in my own unit are pretty good guys and good soldiers - but the backbone of the regiment is still the senior NCOs, and nobody gets "looked up to" more than them.
 

Jungle

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CarlG, ask any youg Infantry Platoon cmder who he looks up to... his PL WO. If he doesn‘t, he will end up being sidetracked by the troops, and the C of C. The most important group in the Army is the SNR NCOs. You need proof ? we regularly take over their position (act as Pl cmder AND PL WO), they NEVER take over ours (they ALWAYS appoint a Sgt to take over the 2ic‘s job). :cdn:
 
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Dehaggerty88

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I normally watch and listen only, but I felt the need to weigh in on this one.
While most of the "higher ups" (snr nco‘s included) like to think that their rank affords them a position of respect it just isn‘t so.
Here‘s a newsflash; the troops aren‘t retards(most of them).We know who to afford respect to and who‘s a bag of sh#t. Rank is inconsequential. Respect is something that‘s earned between individuals and not given simply because anyone has more rank. I can salute any pointyhead(read officer) and it doesn‘t mean a damn thing about what I think of him.I just don‘t need to listen to him whine about paying compliments.
As to what rank is the most important? If it wasn‘t for the pte/cpl‘s there would be no discussion.
By the way, rank is supposed to be about taking care of your subordinates, not feeding anyones fragile ego.
I‘ll sum the %$# up now. Wearing rank is all about earning the respect of your followers thereby gaining their trust so as they will follow you. Anyone foolish enough to think that they have a bunch of sheep following them are surely underestimating the capabilities and initiative of their own troops.
 

muskrat89

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groundpounder - buried in your rantings and profanities were the vaguest grains of reason - speaking of respect, you had more from me, when you were "watching and listening"....
 
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Wilson601

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I am well aware that you or any other NCM may pay compliments to an officer. Its differnt when you mean it. When you Actually respect the individual your saluting. I don‘t want to be an Officer because I a on power trip and want respect becuase my parents never gave me any. I‘m a natural born leader and i think that is best applied in a leadership posistion. :skull:
 

Jarnhamar

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You sounded like a kid in your post guy.
Speaking of leadership look at it this way. A company commander gives orders to 3 platoon commanders. A platoon commander gives orders to 3 section commanders. A section commander gives orders and has to take care of 7 or 8 soldiers. He has to physically look after twice as many people as an officer.

It reminds me of a conversation with a political science student. She saw me not going through to be an officer as me "settling" for a lesser rank, for not wanting responsibility or or to progress in my carreer. Officers don‘t "get to" kick down doors in fibua, investigate a dark cave, get their nose almost broke when the riot shield their holding gets kicked or get in a fist fight with a drunk beligerant. It depends what what you want out of the army.
Don‘t live in a PMQ either, get a house :blotto:
 

Michael Dorosh

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Carl G., what makes you think only officers adopt "leadership positions". Every soldier in the Army is a leader - even the private with six months experience, because he is expected to maintain the standards set for him by the Army, his Regiment, and his NCOs and officers. When a private comes to the unit with only three months experience, he pretty much follows the lead of the guy with six months experience. Believe it or not, that‘s leadership, and it isn‘t a trait confined to, or expected only from, the commissioned officers.

Leadership isn‘t about barking orders; in fact, the best leaders I‘ve known in the Army never felt the need to raise their voice, curse in public, or belittle anyone. They had the respect of the men because the respect flowed both ways. And not so coincidentally, these "best leaders" I refer to were mostly NCOs, or former NCOs who had commissioned.

My regular force friend tells me about the RMC and University weenies they had at Gagetown learning to be officers. Unfortunately for them, their life skills and experience was quite sadly lacking, and they apparently feel - like you do - that being an officer makes them superior. They will find out - as you will - that once with their unit, if they don‘t have the basic abilities of the soldiers they are leading, they will not have any respect - the days of buying privilege are happily over. This is why the best officers are often ones who served a couple of years in the ranks first.

I would lose the fantasies about being saluted if I were you, surely to God there are more important things to being in the Forces. The really good officers I know hate being saluted and grimace every time someone does it. They‘re also the kind I would follow without them demanding it of me.
 
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Wilson601

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I would believe that a competent person would be able to take control of a $hit situation, look out for his people AND get the job done to the best of his ability is what i personally would percieve as being leadership.

I‘m not sure i like the position of alot of things in the army. I Believe things could be a **** of alot better. Now, bearing in mind that hindsight is alwasy 20/20, I believe that i could have changed the outcomes of certain situations (somalia, Rwanda) that DID not have to happen, and i think if i was in charge, it would not have. We in the CF have some excellent people upstairs but not nearly enough.

Many of those brass people don‘t know what its like for pte.Bloggins, who‘s @ss is in the grass everyday, where hes cold and wet and hungry, but soldiers on. I‘d like to take that experiance, bring it to the table, and hopefully make life that much easyer for everyone ; but espcially the troops. I want to be an officer for those troops who don‘t have a good one. :skull:
 

Jungle

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That is all very nice there groundpounder and CarlG, but as a leader, the hardest thing is to find a balance between what the chain of command orders and what the troops want. Now remember that Snr NCOs all have been through the ranks, and officers have not. So most NCOs remember what it was like as a trooper, but age and experience put a new perspective on things. At the end of the day, you can either leave or suck it up and learn from other‘s mistakes. As you go up in rank, try not to do the same mistakes... :cdn:
 

Gunner

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i could have changed the outcomes of certain situations (somalia, Rwanda)
Carl G. As the saying goes, hindsight is 20/20. Perhaps when you mature and if and when you rise in rank, you may have an opportunity to make a decision. You will then alolow many armchair generals to second guess what you should and shouldn‘t have done.

Secondly, all "army brass" start out at the bottom of the totem pole with their *** in hte grass, just like everyone else.
 

RCA

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And to clear up another misconception. You are not saluting the person, you are saluting the Queen‘s commission. And whether an officer likes it or not, he has a legal obligation to return the salute.

As for leadership, the only true NCMs who command (in the purest form, and of course there are exceptions to every rule) are the ones at the lowest level. ie section commander. SNCOs and WOs don‘t command, but assist his commander (officer) in leading his unit, be it platoon, Battery, Regiment etc. We, as NCOs have an obligation to assist and advise officers to the best of our abilites. This is whether he/she is a "pointyhead" or not. As long as it is legal, we follow.

Respect is an entirely different kettle of fish. It is earned. However, it has no bearing on the orders you receive and carry out. You‘re just lucky to get an officer or NCO that you respect.

And lastly, comparing officers and NCOs is like comparing apples and oranges. Each is different and has a different role and responsibilty. And I can name quite a few officers who I respect and are good at what they do, and have never been in the ranks.

What it comes down to, is the type of person you are, the examples that are set for you, and the training you receive. These are the basics of becoming good at your job, and in turn earning respect, both up and down.
 

RCA

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And to clear up another misconception. You are not saluting the person, you are saluting the Queen‘s commission. And whether an officer likes it or not, he has a legal obligation to return the salute.

As for leadership, the only true NCMs who command (in the purest form, and of course there are exceptions to every rule) are the ones at the lowest level. ie section commander. SNCOs and WOs don‘t command, but assist his commander (officer) in leading his unit, be it platoon, Battery, Regiment etc. We, as NCOs have an obligation to assist and advise officers to the best of our abilites. This is whether he/she is a "pointyhead" or not. As long as it is legal, we follow.

Respect is an entirely different kettle of fish. It is earned. However, it has no bearing on the orders you receive and carry out. You‘re just lucky to get an officer or NCO that you respect.

And lastly, comparing officers and NCOs is like comparing apples and oranges. Each is different and has a different role and responsibilty. And I can name quite a few officers who I respect and are good at what they do, and have never been in the ranks.

What it comes down to, is the type of person you are, the examples that are set for you, and the training you receive. These are the basics of becoming good at your job, and in turn earning respect, both up and down.
 
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2Lt_Martin

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RCA -- Well said. To the newer folks in this forum these are the words of experience, remember them.

I am junior officer in a reserve unit, I have been with the unit almost three years now and I am just starting to truly earn the trust and respect of the troops in my platoon(Note: I have only been a Platoon Commander for a few months). My boss is a CPO2, and I could not ask for a better person to "show me the way" sort of speak.

As for changing the outcomes of Rwanda and Somlia I truly doubt that you could have done this. If you want some insight on Somolia hop over to Commando.org and read the Journals about Somolia from the perspective of someone who was there.

Something else to remember if you go officer; one of the first words in "officer" is "office" which is where you spend a lot of time before you are out running around getting saluted etc... :blotto:

My two cents
 

Pikache

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I would lose the fantasies about being saluted if I were you, surely to God there are more important things to being in the Forces. The really good officers I know hate being saluted and grimace every time someone does it. They‘re also the kind I would follow without them demanding it of me.
I‘ve noticed this... phenomenon too. Not that I don‘t think officers who enjoy getting saluted sucks or anything, but a lot of officers I respect didn‘t enjoy getting saluted.

Well, I am wondering when someone will bring up way of recruiting officers like they do in Starship Troopers...

Carl G, if you have not read that book, I recommend that you do. (Funny IIRC Heinlein was Navy, but his thoughts are like a grunt in that book)
 

SpinDoc

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Also keep in mind that when something goes physically wrong at the soldier‘s level, a lot of the times the ultimate responsibility/fault is delegated to the officer even if s/he doesn‘t have a direct hand in it -- it becomes his fault because he is supposed to have a handle on it -- which sometimes isn‘t easy since I doubt any of us can be omnipresent, and delegation of responsibility isn‘t perfect. And like it or not, crap happens out of the blue sometimes.
 
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Wilson601

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BedPan: can you explain the starship troopers bit... :skull:
 

MethylSilane

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In the Mobile Infantry (of Starship Troopers) officers are commissioned exclusively from the ranks. There is no DEO or anything similar.

Actually, I just finished re-reading Starship Troopers. It‘s an excellent book, and quite different, and a lot better than the movie based on it.
 
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