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Air CIC Prohibited from wearing CADPAT?

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Matt_Fisher

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I just got an inquiry from an Air CIC officer asking if we could provide OD combats, as he states that Air Element CIC officers are prohibited from wearing CF issued CADPAT combats. 

Is there any background to this? I find it quite bewildering, in that Air Command pers are authorized to wear CADPAT as appropriate, so you'd assume that such policy would also apply to Air CIC?

 

geo

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CIC Prohibited from wearing CADPAT?  CADPAT combats are issued to them so, they can't be prohibited.  When they are authorised to wear em is another thing altogether.

in LFQA, Cadets fall under the authority of the Army.  There may be Air & Sea Cadets, but they all work under the umbrella of the Army. 

That having been said, it is possible that the Cadets regional HQ has determined that CADPAT combats will not be the "dress of the day" in their area.  DEUs may be deemed "dress of the day" and the combat uniform relegated to "field" dress.

Don't think OD combats would solve your CIC officer's problems
 

Matt_Fisher

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Geo,

Here's the inquiry that I got, which I've sanitized for the anonymity of the author:

"I thought I would update you on the Cadpat situation out here on the prairies. It is forbidden for all air CIC and cadets  to wear cadpat at anytime. We had to turn ours in and if we have our own we still cannot wear it. We are allowed to wear the old green combats (mine were issued in '85 in Germany so you can imagine how they fit now) but they are getting harder to find.  As for Army cadets I cannot tell you for sure but it is my belief that they cannot wear cadpat either."

I can see how it would make sense that DEU be worn for training nights, but the inquiry was based around what is appropriate for Air CIC officers to wear for field exercises. 

I've sent  an inquiry on this subject to Chief Reserves and Cadets, so once I get an answer, I'll post it.
 

geo

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Thanks for the update Matt
To date it hasn't been an issue here.  There is an armoury located in my back yard - Really... From my kitchen window I can see what goes on in the Orderly room and the Ops WOs offices.
Cadet CIC officers are still wearing their CADPAT on most training nights so it's either a regional CIC thing that will either spread across the country or die out in the prairies.

I know that there was some grumbling when the CIC officers did start receiving the CADPAT.  Some got it before most reservists got theirs.  The question of what do they need the CADPAT for was brought up early in the discussion.

There have been some moves to "demilitarize" the cadets over the years.... bring them somewhat into line with the Boy Scouts movement.

Keep me advised - this is an interesting sit
 

Sloaner

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At pressent, the Air element CIC Officers are only entitled to their DEU's.  While employed at a cadet summer training centre or employed with an Army cadet unit they may draw the Army Operational entitlement equal to what the Army CIC officers are given, but it is to be returned when no longer serving within that estabilshment.  That being said, it has often been the case that CIC Air officers have been issued with combat clothing anyway by their support units because of the recognition of the need to conduct some outdoors training and the DEU is just not apprpriate.  I have heard that a directive was put forward from 1 CAD to not issue combats to CIC Air officers, but I haven't actually seen it.  The Sea element CIC officers can obtain NCD's for their duties and the Army element is entitled to basic operational clothing and equipment from scale D01301, but that is all.  The while so employed clause not withstanding, it is often true that Air CIC officers are required to provide their own appropriate field equipment.  I would be interested in reading what you get back from D Cadets on the issue though.
 

navymich

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Sloaner said:
The Sea element CIC officers can obtain NCD's for their duties...

The Navy CIC officers that I work with have all been issued Cadpat.  When I see them next, I'll have to ask what their scale of issue is.
 

Gho57rid3r

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airmich said:
The Navy CIC officers that I work with have all been issued Cadpat.  When I see them next, I'll have to ask what their scale of issue is.

It's interesting that you say that Ma'am, being a Navy CIC Officer I have repeatedly asked and requested Cadpat on a number of different occasions.  I was told that NCD's are all that we are entitled to, as well when conducting outdoor field exercises we are to wear our NCD's with our parade boots.  Wearing of NCD's / parade boots while camping, hiking or any outdoor activity is an adventure in itself (LOL).  NCD's do have a time and a place and would not like to stop using them, just not while camping etc. Although This may not be an issue anymore in the near future with the new role out of the cadet program Navy cadets are loosing outdoor adventure training in lieu of an extra sail weekend, I'm not sure if it has been determined if the CO's optional will allow for camping, or outdoor training but if it doesn't then we truly wont have a need for Cadpat then.
 

navymich

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Gho57rid3r:  With what you have said, I will definitely get back to you on what I find out on Friday.  It is sounding between this, and the other situations mentioned in this thread, that it is a district and/or provincial decision making.  (pssst, btw I'm not a ma'am ;))
 

medaid

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Okay... I've got a question and Vern can answer this probably... WHAT happened to ALL the CAG kit that we turned in? If CIC requires field clothing, why can't they wear the old CAG stuff? I'm sorry, but I'm a firm believer that CIC does NOT require CADPAT kit. They are NOT operational and hence operation equipment and clothing are not needed at all for them. There should still be plenty o that CAG stuff left shouldn't there? Not to mention we all had to turn in our CAG Gore-tex and fleece amongst others, instead of selling them off, why don't we give it to the CIC?
 

Gho57rid3r

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MedTech I couldn't agree with you more, I hope not to offend others that are CIC Army.  But when CIC officers were being issued Cadpat before F/T Reg and Res that just seemed wrong.  As for the wearing of the old uniforms I don't see how that would be inappropriate, but then again what I don't know could be a lot.

Just my 2 cents.
 

Neill McKay

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Gho57rid3r said:
MedTech I couldn't agree with you more, I hope not to offend others that are CIC Army.  But when CIC officers were being issued Cadpat before F/T Reg and Res that just seemed wrong.

Maybe it was, but how many years ago was that?  Is there anybody still waiting for their issue of CadPat?  Enough already.

As for the wearing of the old uniforms I don't see how that would be inappropriate, but then again what I don't know could be a lot.

CIC officers are Canadian Forces members and should wear current-pattern Canadian Forces uniforms.

[quote author=MedTech]They are NOT operational and hence operation equipment and clothing are not needed at all for them.[/quote]

The issue of operational vs. non-operational is irrelevant: combats are now worn as daily garrison dress by CF members of all stripes in offices, classrooms, and everywhere else.

If another reason is necessary, it's that the old pattern combats are no longer being produced and you can only go on issuing used uniforms from existing stock for so long before running into problems with sizing and such.  There are something close to 7000 CIC officers in the Canadian Forces spread out over the country.  It would be a serious logistical challenge to maintain enough various sizes of a uniform that is no longer being produced in each location necessary to provide for issues and exchanges.
 

Dipstick

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That this is even still an issue boggles my mind...  To tell one subcomponent/trade in the CF that they can't wear the officially-sanctioned field uniform of the Canadian Forces, and direct them to the local surplus store bargain-bin is absurd.  As commissioned officers of the CF (and, anyone's individual prejudice aside, we can surely all agree that that's exactly what they are), they should be wearing the same uniform as the rest of us.  I agree with Neill - enough already.
 

medaid

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Neill McKay said:
The issue of operational vs. non-operational is irrelevant: combats are now worn as daily garrison dress by CF members of all stripes in offices, classrooms, and everywhere else.
Navy does NOT wear CADPAT, unles their members are directly supporting ground ops or working with land/air elements everyday. We're still in NCDs. The AF only switched to CADPAT for its ground crew and land based personnel because it was much easier on the logistical side of things.

Dipstick said:
That this is even still an issue boggles my mind...  To tell one subcomponent/trade in the CF that they can't wear the officially-sanctioned field uniform of the Canadian Forces, and direct them to the local surplus store bargain-bin is absurd.  As commissioned officers of the CF (and, anyone's individual prejudice aside, we can surely all agree that that's exactly what they are), they should be wearing the same uniform as the rest of us.  I agree with Neill - enough already.

Indeed my friend. FIELD UNIFORM. Yup, you got it mate. FIELD. CIC Air and Navy officers conduct how many FIELD related exercises per year? I'm exlcuding Army because like Neil said that is their dress of the day and could not be changed. However, CIC Air and Navy officers RARELY have to wear field uniforms except when they are on ex. So, fine, I think they should be issued field uniforms. CADPAT? Sure, knock your socks off. All 3 sets? No, not even close. You can have 2. If one gets wet you have another set. Besides no CIC is rarely ever 'deployed' into the field for more then 2 days at a time anyways. CADPAT Gore-tex and fleece? No. Not until the rest of the CF get them and that means RegF and PRes of ALL elements that entitles it. Bush cap? Sure. MkIIIs? Definetly! WWB? No. When does this list end?

I don't know I'm just being cynical. Sorry. Even though the times of CIC being issued CADPAT and WWB have passed, there are some who still harbour ill feelings towards them. Yes, they are commissioned officers (feelings aside) of the CF and they do deserve to be properly kitted out, however, they should be the LOWEST priority. Entitlement to equipment should be ONLY what is suitable for their tasks. So mortar gloves and CADPAT gloves? Not really needed right?
 

Dipstick

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MedTech said:
Indeed my friend. FIELD UNIFORM. Yup, you got it mate. FIELD. CIC Air and Navy officers conduct how many FIELD related exercises per year? I'm exlcuding Army because like Neil said that is their dress of the day and could not be changed. However, CIC Air and Navy officers RARELY have to wear field uniforms except when they are on ex. So, fine, I think they should be issued field uniforms. CADPAT? Sure, knock your socks off. All 3 sets? No, not even close. You can have 2. If one gets wet you have another set. Besides no CIC is rarely ever 'deployed' into the field for more then 2 days at a time anyways. CADPAT Gore-tex and fleece? No. Not until the rest of the CF get them and that means RegF and PRes of ALL elements that entitles it. Bush cap? Sure. MkIIIs? Definetly! WWB? No. When does this list end?

I don't know I'm just being cynical. Sorry. Even though the times of CIC being issued CADPAT and WWB have passed, there are some who still harbour ill feelings towards them. Yes, they are commissioned officers (feelings aside) of the CF and they do deserve to be properly kitted out, however, they should be the LOWEST priority. Entitlement to equipment should be ONLY what is suitable for their tasks. So mortar gloves and CADPAT gloves? Not really needed right?

I don't at all disagree with you.  What I disagree with is your earlier position that they should be roaming around in the old OG107 stuff that everyone else turned in long ago; that they're somehow unworthy of wearing the same uniform the rest of us wear.  A couple of shirts and pants, MkIII boots, and perhaps a funny hat are all they need.  The array of uniforms I've seen on CIC officers in the field would blow your mind - old garrison jackets, DEU sweaters and scarves, all with CF rank insignia and beret.  This is easily avoided if basic (and current) combat clothing is made available to them, allowing them to look the part regardless of where they may be.
 

medaid

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Dipstick said:
I don't at all disagree with you.  What I disagree with is your earlier position that they should be roaming around in the old OG107 stuff that everyone else turned in long ago; that they're somehow unworthy of wearing the same uniform the rest of us wear.  A couple of shirts and pants, MkIII boots, and perhaps a funny hat are all they need.  The array of uniforms I've seen on CIC officers in the field would blow your mind - old garrison jackets, DEU sweaters and scarves, all with CF rank insignia and beret.  This is easily avoided if basic (and current) combat clothing is made available to them, allowing them to look the part regardless of where they may be.

Agreed. Maybe after that we can stop having ill feelings bout them ;)
 

Franko

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Matt, some of the policies that are being talked about here are actually enforced from the person's ACO and higher, not from the LFWA Comd net.

The cadet world is a bit different not only from the CF but varies from command area to command area.

Policies on the east coast are different from the west coast. Air, Navy and Army CIC have different scale of issues as well. Then there are the different ACOs on top of that.

If it's not allowed in the prairies, then it's not. He's going to have to do his homework and look it up and make some official inquiries to get some resolution to it.

I've run into this instance before IRT weapons, dress regs and other such things and the differences from LFAA to LFCA are in someways 180 degrees opposite.

The ACO wanted it a certain way and after going the official route and getting some facts straight IRT affiliated units and dress regs for parades and the like, they made changes.

Now getting into DEU on training night and combats on weekends for field exercises. Makes sense and I'm sure that everyone here can agree that it's appropriate.

Navy have their way and there is no way of changing it unless you make a case and present it higher. Same goes for the Air Force.

As for it being either OD green combats or CADPAT, there really isn't any justification for that if there is no longer any OD in the system to issue to the CIC. They should be issued CADPAT upon turn in of the OD.

I'm sure Vern will be along to shed some more light on this. She's dealt with this before I'm sure.

I'll get in touch with a couple of higher ups in the cadet world in Ottawa and get the skinny on this for you and post it here for all to see.

Regards
 

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airmich said:
The Navy CIC officers that I work with have all been issued Cadpat.  When I see them next, I'll have to ask what their scale of issue is.

Official word from both Lt(N) Trucotte, Sea Training Officer for RCSU (Regional Cadet Support Unit) Central Region is that CADPAT is to only be worn for  RCIS activities while on course or while employed at a CSTC. The CWO for the Region has also made this quite clear.

While a higher or different authority may authorize it within scale of issue, or otherwise, our chain of command has spoken. Of course they have no issues with OD/OG107 being worn, or wearing NCD's in the field, with the new Cadet Program Update there will be no support outdoor adventure training, and most to all Sea Cadet activities should be in a "maritime" environment, or water based.

This in effect for all Area Detachments.
 

armyvern

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Answer:

Air CIC are entitled to 2 sets Cadpat, merged.

I'll send you the scale ref tomorrow Matt.

Vern
 

armyvern

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There might be a disconnect.

Both Land & Air CIC officers are entitled to be issued 2 sets of Cadpat, TW (merged pattern for Air element) onto their clothing docs as a normal issue.

SEA enviornmental CIC officers are NOT entitled to cadpat as part of their kit. Authorized cadpat dress for the Naval CIC officers is restricted to times when they are employed within a Cadet Summer Training Facility. It will be issued on a Temp Loan basis via DND638 (vice issued to their clothing docs) and will be turned in to the Camp QM shop to out-clear.

Authorized dress of the day for Land & Air pers is: Cadpat

I'll pull up the CIC scale tomorrow at work after my ruck march. Perhaps they've changed it in the past week and forgot to tell us suppies about it??
 

armyvern

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Sloaner said:
At pressent, the Air element CIC Officers are only entitled to their DEU's.  While employed at a cadet summer training centre or employed with an Army cadet unit they may draw the Army Operational entitlement equal to what the Army CIC officers are given, but it is to be returned when no longer serving within that estabilshment.  That being said, it has often been the case that CIC Air officers have been issued with combat clothing anyway by their support units because of the recognition of the need to conduct some outdoors training and the DEU is just not apprpriate.  I have heard that a directive was put forward from 1 CAD to not issue combats to CIC Air officers, but I haven't actually seen it.  The Sea element CIC officers can obtain NCD's for their duties and the Army element is entitled to basic operational clothing and equipment from scale D01301, but that is all.  The while so employed clause not withstanding, it is often true that Air CIC officers are required to provide their own appropriate field equipment.  I would be interested in reading what you get back from D Cadets on the issue though.

Actually, it was the habit of me (at that supporting clothing stores) to issue AIR CIC officers cadpat merged ... because they WERE entitled to it by scale.

CTS likes to play strict control on "their babies" ... you think they'd just let us issue it to non-entitled people for the hell of it?? No way Jose.

So, if this is a NEW directive from 1 CAD ... it will be an ammendment to the Scale of Entitlement that removes the authority of Sup Techs to issue these items to Air CIC officers. They were still entitled by that scale last week.

I'll check tomorrow.
 
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