Airsoft and the CF?

[Dissident]

After watching this video:
http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_HelenGetYourGun.wmv

And looking at this site:
http://www.militaryathlete.com/page.php?page_ID=15&gallery_type=videos&start=10

One way or another I will do something similar. I have the range and the equipment to do this by myself or with a small group of people civi side.

However, I would like to do this at the unit. I am not a big fan of Airsoft, but it seems like the best way to bring the marksmanship part of that Crossfit workout to my platoon.

Has anyone successfully argued for the purchase of Airsoft equipment for training use? Or if you have been unsuccessful, did “they” give you a reason why not? Or do you know of any unit/base that currently uses Airsoft?

 

[MikeL]

Airsoft isn't a good tool for marksmanship training IMO as it doesn't share any characteristics as a real weapon... ie no recoil, range, etc  a bit of a breeze an the BB will go flying off course. Probably would be a decent tool for FIBUA/CQB training to get tactics down, etc but for actual marksmanship training there is better options.

Better off trying to get simmunition, an it is already in the system.  Or actually using live ammo(after dry an simmunition training)

 

[Lerch]

+1 for the simunition. Airsoft is just too...logistically unsound...there's just too many problems with getting your unit to purchase anything.
If you're looking to solely use pistols, you'd be better off going into Canadian Tire and getting some CO2 pellet guns.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I doubt that with the budget cuts we're getting hit with you'll be able to purchase a water pistol or rubber band gun. Never mind high tech gear and training time.

 

[Fusaki]

After watching this video:
http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_HelenGetYourGun.wmv

And looking at this site:
http://www.militaryathlete.com/page.php?page_ID=15&gallery_type=videos&start=10

One way or another I will do something similar. I have the range and the equipment to do this by myself or with a small group of people civi side.

However, I would like to do this at the unit. I am not a big fan of Airsoft, but it seems like the best way to bring the marksmanship part of that Crossfit workout to my platoon.

Has anyone successfully argued for the purchase of Airsoft equipment for training use? Or if you have been unsuccessful, did “they” give you a reason why not? Or do you know of any unit/base that currently uses Airsoft?

If you're going to run something like "Helen get your gun", you need to be aware of what skills you are (more importantly what skills you're not) training.

I made this post over at lightfighter not too long ago:

Originally posted by Fatty:
Physical stress is great, and this is a good concept. However, why do it against static, unrealistic targets? That's rhetorical, you don't need to respond, I know numerous reasons why practicing this way is good.

My point is:

Do this, then go force on force.

I'm privileged to have had the opportunity to have attended one of Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's seminars last year. Some of the points he made were very much in line with your comments above.

Physical exertion alone is no substitute for force on force training. While the loss of fine motor movement is comparable, burpees don't begin to deal with the stress involved with the perceptual distortions of combat: hyperclarity, tunnel vision, slow motion time, intensified sound, ect. According to Grossman, to effectively train for this environment there needs to be a "bad guy" shooting back at you.

Training like what is described in "Helen Get Your Gun" is important, but I don't think "stress" is the best word to describe the added variable. Physical exertion is one thing, but stress is what you feel in force on force or combat.

http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4736015661/m/288109043

So to sum up,

IMHO Helen Get Your Gun will not train you for the "stress" of combat like the guys in the video claim.  It may train you to shoot while you're bagged, but training for stress requires a bad guy shooting back at you: ie force on force simunition.

 

[FishOuttaWater]

Regarding Airsoft. Never in a million years...  :

In relation to the video, and Wonderbreads comment:

IMHO Helen Get Your Gun will not train you for the "stress" of combat like the guys in the video claim.  It may train you to shoot while you're bagged, but training for stress requires a bad guy shooting back at you: ie force on force simunition.

IMO, the guy in the video is saying it will help in training to shoot while under the "stress" of physical exertion, not combat.

Not to mention if you treat H.G.Y.G. as a test-situation for troops, the mental stresses of failure (however that would be determined IDK) while competing.

But yes, nothing is the same as FOF combat-training. But even then everyone's still only firing paintballs.

:-\  I think that type of training (video) would be beneficial to troops. A few here have mentioned a need for better physical conditioning for some soldiers...

 

[Fusaki]

IMO, the guy in the video is saying it will help in training to shoot while under the "stress" of physical exertion, not combat.

Not to mention if you treat H.G.Y.G. as a test-situation for troops, the mental stresses of failure (however that would be determined IDK) while competing.

Physical exertion is not stress.  The effect on the body is totally different.

If we're just looking to test the soldiers ability to shoot while he's bagged, then the PWT3 already does the job in a more practical way and in a more tactically realistic way.  Don't fix it if it ain't broke.

 

[Dissident]

Physical exertion is not stress.  The effect on the body is totally different.

If we're just looking to test the soldiers ability to shoot while he's bagged, then the PWT3 already does the job in a more practical way and in a more tactically realistic way.  Don't fix it if it ain't broke.

The point is: I can not take the platoon to the range on a Wednesday night.

We get range time maybe twice a year as part of the trg calendar. We were even told not to do the PWT3 anymore, but this is an ENTIRELY different problem in itself.

You seem to be against Airsoft and I don't blame you, I'm not a big fan either. If you have suggestions to make trg more interesting and relevant in the context of a reserve trg schedule, I am all ears.

 

[Fusaki]

Point taken about not being able to shoot PWT3s on Wednesdays.  I'll admit that in your case airsoft seems like a relatively cheap, safe, and effective way to train.

All I'm saying is that shooting fig 11s will not inoculate soldiers to the stress of combat - regardless of whether you're shooting ball, sim, or airsoft and regardless if you're physically exhasuted or fresh off the back of the ML.  I'm NOT saying that Helen Get Your Gun is bad training.  Given your situation, it looks like something really cool to do on a wednesday night and I think your guys would get something out of it.  I just think though, that you should be aware about what skills you are training (shooting while exerted) and what skills you're not training (stress inoculation).

 

[Jarnhamar]

Equipping a platoon with airsoft or paintball is pretty expensive.
Another major obstacle is that soldiers have a very big tendency to switch from 'soldier in a rifle section mode' to 'paintball' mode.

 

[Fusaki]

Another major obstacle is that soldiers have a very big tendency to switch from 'soldier in a rifle section mode' to 'paintball' mode.

Not necessarily a bad thing.  SOPs that sound good on paper are put to the test when there's an enemy shooting back.

I think that "Paintball mode" is what soldiers naturally do to keep themselves safe from any small objects flying at them.  Shouldn't our "Soldier in a rifle section" drills reflect that too?

 

[Jarnhamar]

Painball mode is having fun jumping out of a trench and running across the open field shooting from the hip.
Or hiding behind a rain barrel.

I think with a lot of discipline and work it you might be able to pull it off.  You'll teach fire and movement but miss out on a lot of personal weapons drills, no?

 

[labo]

Ive played paintball before, and recently switched to airsoft... hoping plastic bb projectiles traveling at 450 FPS would make you think twice about going rambo on somebody. Once you get used to being shot.. its the same sport at the end of the day. As far as equipment is concerned, it comes fairly close. Magazines (realcaps) load up to 30 rounds. The immitation scopes, rails, and customization options look and feel like the real thing... but for weapons training, with the absence of pain (or possible death) i probably wouldnt recommend it... if you get hit, you have nothing to lose.

 

[NavyShooter]

I have not looked at the source videos referenced above, but here's my thoughts:

I bought an airsoft "M-4" type rifle, with the intent to use it for some indoor training, and practicing positional work (Sitting/kneeling mostly).

I recently sold the thing off with no intent to go back.

Reasons.

1.  It's Airsoft.

2. Trigger pull is COMPLETELY different (Instead of a smooth steady squeeze to let it off, it's a smooth steady squeeze which engages a switch which turns on the motor which moves the gears which then fires the shot....) 

3.  FLIMSY.  This was an "All Metal" Airsoft rifle, but when compared to a real rifle, it was very flimsy.  Straddling my knee with the rifle in the kneeling position left me concerned about the durability of the rifle and magazine  I was worried it would break.

4.  Flimsy.  The handguard attachment was not terribly reliable, and the various metal pieces were made of pot metal, (white metal castings) that will not be durable. 

5.  Weapons Drills.  DIFFERENT.  'Nuf said.

So, Instead, I'm back to just plain dry-fire training with my AR-15 when I can't make it to the range. 

Oh, yeah, and if you're married, there's a good chance that having a bunch of airsoft pellets rolling around the floor will "peeve" your spousal unit.....

I guess my summation of this is that your best option is live fire training with the real guns, then simmunition as the next best thing, then dry-fire training with the real guns.  Our pistol team uses some airsoft Sigs that they bought to practice drawing, sight picture, and grip/hold.  But the cross-over in skill-set is truly limited.

Airsoft is, in my experience and opinion, a 3rd rate method to build some skill. 

NS

 

[Dissident]

The video showed a Crossfit workout with the addition of a steel plate pistol stage.

What I had in mind was something similar, but using an airsoft pistol or rifle and a reactive target of some sort.

 

[AndyRad]

WWW.RAP4.COM...... THEY CLAIM TO HAVE CQB CALIBER TRAINING EQUIPMENT. SIMULATION PAINTBALL....COULD BE FUN

 

[MikeL]

WWW.RAP4.COM...... THEY CLAIM TO HAVE CQB CALIBER TRAINING EQUIPMENT. SIMULATION PAINTBALL....COULD BE FUN

Turn the capslock off

Also, why are you recommending this? Do you have any experiance with it? Do you even know what their claim about CQB caliber equipment means? Have you ever used any of the CF kit that is in the system, etc?  Or are you just posting a link to a random paintball gun for sh*ts 'n giggles because you saw it on a site an throught it was super uber ninja cool.

 

[AndyRad]

Sorry bout the caps. yes i have dealt with the equipment....we go out west for scenario weekends. we being a group of about 20 of my friends. they have stuff spec'd for military and police training and then their civilian equipment. now i haven't dealt with the military and police quality equipment but i am very satisfied with their equipment....yes i am new to here so go nice on me...and ill be nice back..




EDIT: spelling

 

[NavyShooter]

Oh,

As an additional point, my experience with the "Airsoft community" is that they all seem to want to be as close to the "real thing" as they can beg/borrow, or in some cases, steal.  That's led to the joys of initiating conversations with folks working in downtown offices over objects that have not been released for commercial sale.

Be careful what you buy, you may get more than you want.

NS