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All things Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV)

Altair

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So an unvaccinated-by-choice person interacts with an unvaccinated-by-necessity (immunocompromised) person. Who gets to worry about their safety more?
yeah, if vaccinated people are getting diagnosed with covid, getting sick with covid, at this point we should assume they are spreading covid.

At this point, we may simply need to accept covid as a fact of life, and immunocompromised people might need to take every precaution to protect themselves from getting covid, from all sources.
 

Quirky

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What if the unvaccinated people do not want society worrying about their safety?

They're just as capable of making that decision for themselves as well as other life choices both major and minor.
If only hospitals could turn away unvaccinated people that are dying from Covid. Until that happens, which unfortunately it won’t, getting vaccinated is part of being a functioning member of society - unless you have a medical reason. Personal choice and belief is irrelevant when it affects others around you.
 

Altair

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If only hospitals could turn away unvaccinated people that are dying from Covid. Until that happens, which unfortunately it won’t, getting vaccinated is part of being a functioning member of society - unless you have a medical reason. Personal choice and belief is irrelevant when it affects others around you.
Nah, lets not open that can of worms

Unless you also want to go after smokers, the overweight, drinkers, anyone with a motorcycle...
 

FJAG

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yeah, if vaccinated people are getting diagnosed with covid, getting sick with covid, at this point we should assume they are spreading covid.

At this point, we may simply need to accept covid as a fact of life, and immunocompromised people might need to take every precaution to protect themselves from getting covid, from all sources.

Some of the initial indications are that when even a partially vaccinated person does get Covid then the infection is for a shorter period of time and with a smaller viral load which results in a reduced risk of transmission to others.

https://www.publichealthontario.ca/...-transmission-vaccinated-cases.pdf?sc_lang=en

🍻
 

Altair

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Some of the initial indications are that when even a partially vaccinated person does get Covid then the infection is for a shorter period of time and with a smaller viral load which results in a reduced risk of transmission to others.

https://www.publichealthontario.ca/...-transmission-vaccinated-cases.pdf?sc_lang=en

🍻
Yes, for sure. Everyone should get vaccinated, as it is still our best bet.

I wont lie and say I'm not discouraged by the data coming out of the front runner nations though.

Israel is showing bad signs.

UK is showing bad signs.

USA is bad for other reasons, but data isn't rosy there at all.

I thought I knew what the finish line of this pandemic would look like, and now I'm just wondering if there is ever going to be a finish line. Was 2019 the last normal year?
 

PuckChaser

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No deaths means you're living in a dream world and better get to work on that magic COVID vaccine that is 100% effective against transmission and illness.

Till you figure that out, the rest of the sane world can reduce risk as much as possible while balancing out human rights of perfectly healthy people.
 

Altair

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No deaths means you're living in a dream world and better get to work on that magic COVID vaccine that is 100% effective against transmission and illness.

Till you figure that out, the rest of the sane world can reduce risk as much as possible while balancing out human rights of perfectly healthy people.
I'm not worried about the deaths.

Its the hospitalizations. So long as hospitals rates rise to the point of stressing the system, public health officials and politicians will hold restrictions over society like the sword of damocles.
 

Edward Campbell

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I'm not worried about the deaths.

Its the hospitalizations. So long as hospitals rates rise to the point of stressing the system, public health officials and politicians will hold restrictions over society like the sword of damocles.

I think that's exactly right. Our creaky broken public healthcare system is a colossal failure. The OECD's data says that we spend more than most other OECD taxpayers for health care but we are down near the very bottom of the heap when they sure "outcomes." Our Canada Health Act funding model ~ single payer ~ doesn't work. Thee's a reason no other OECD nation uses it.
 

ModlrMike

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The chief problem with our system is one of delivery. We have infinite demand, and too many people are too eager to come to ER for even the most minor issues, when they could see their own MD or go to a walk-in clinic. Secondly, there are lots of folks with no sick benefits, and if they take time off for medical reasons, they don't get paid. Therefore, they tend to show up in ER after dinner, creating a large backlog of cases to attend, creating undue stress on the system. We also live in an era of instant gratification. People are unwilling to wait for an appointment, when they can come to ER and have their issue dealt with now.

If we made improvements to primary care - like co-locating a walk-in clinic beside an ER for example, perhaps costs would come down, and outcomes would go up. For example, it costs the system about $700 for you to be triaged at ER, for your seasonal cold. The base cost to the system for a WIC or family MD for the same visit is about $45.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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Yea but with the ER visit you might be able to scam some opioids that your personal MD won't prescribe anymore.....
 

ModlrMike

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Not in Winnipeg. We have a system wide policy of not refilling outpatient narcotic prescriptions. We also have access to the patient's pharmacy dispensing history, so we know when they were last provided opioids. I get some very colourful answers when I challenge patients about their dispensing history.
 

mariomike

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We have infinite demand, and too many people are too eager to come to ER for even the most minor issues, when they could see their own MD or go to a walk-in clinic.
Funding is also an issue. They told us our funding from the province was based upon the census population of the city. Not its business and visitor population.

As a result, there are always more people calling for help than the service has been funded for.

Off-Load Delay at hospitals is still a problem, from what I understand. That decreases unit availability, which degrades response times.

The "Baby Boom" generation is aging. As it does so, all of those 'boomers' become net consumers of health care, driving up demand for services.
 

Loachman

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So an unvaccinated-by-choice person interacts with an unvaccinated-by-necessity (immunocompromised) person. Who gets to worry about their safety more?

Both can worry as much or as little as they wish. That's a personal choice.

There are bazillions of hazards in life. This delightful gift of the Chinese Communist Party is just another one of those, as is skiing, skydiving, living in low-lying areas that have not seen a flood in 99.9 years, or chefs who leave the clam chowder at room temperature a little too long etcetera.

Every adult human being in full possession of his or her faculties is capable of making his or her own threat/risk assessments based upon his or her personal circumstances and taking whatever (legal and moral) measures he or she deems appropriate to reduce exposure to or potential effects of identified risks.
 

Altair

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Both can worry as much or as little as they wish. That's a personal choice.

There are bazillions of hazards in life. This delightful gift of the Chinese Communist Party is just another one of those, as is skiing, skydiving, living in low-lying areas that have not seen a flood in 99.9 years, or chefs who leave the clam chowder at room temperature a little too long etcetera.

Every adult human being in full possession of his or her faculties is capable of making his or her own threat/risk assessments based upon his or her personal circumstances and taking whatever (legal and moral) measures he or she deems appropriate to reduce exposure to or potential effects of identified risks.
I'm wondering where all the classic liberals, personal choice and freedoms people have gone.

This nanny state nonsense made sense while we were not vaccinated, but now that we are, we should just be given the choice to decide what risks we want to accept as individuals.
 

Loachman

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If only hospitals could turn away unvaccinated people that are dying from Covid. Until that happens, which unfortunately it won’t, getting vaccinated is part of being a functioning member of society - unless you have a medical reason. Personal choice and belief is irrelevant when it affects others around you.

You may not be so willing to trash the rights of others once somebody has done that to you.

These vaccines as still experimental. They are still under Emergency Use Authorization (in the US) and not fully approved.

"An Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) in the United States is an authorization granted to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) under sections of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act as added to and amended by various Acts of Congress, including by the Pandemic and All-Hazards Preparedness Reauthorization Act of 2013 (PAHPRA), as codified by 21 U.S.C. § 360bbb-3, to allow the use of a drug prior to approval. It does not constitute approval of the drug in the full statutory meaning of the term, but instead authorizes FDA to facilitate availability of an unapproved product, or an unapproved use of an approved product, during a declared state of emergency from one of several agencies or of a "material threat" by the Secretary of Homeland Security." (Wikipedia)

These vaccines also come with risks. They are neither 100% effective nor 100% safe. A relatively small number of people have suffered significant and lengthy injuries from them. People are entitled to make their own medical decisions in a (supposedly) free society - at least until Quirky I assumes the Maple Throne.
 

Altair

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They've been reclassified as hard right extremists.
I mean, even Trudeau is against things like vaccine passports.

So I assume classic liberals still exist in the mainstream.

When covid spread unchecked, putting our weak healthcare system at risk, restrictions made sense.

But 80 percent of eligible canadians have their first dose, and it stands to reason if someone was willing to have their first, they will have their second. So we are looking at 80 percent uptake on vaccines.

I don't understand the reasons for this complete risk aversion and nanny state nonsense that we see happening now. I thank god that most premiers are not going down that road, but I am seeing a disturbing amount of individuals like quirky all too willing to have the state and businesses allow for a two tier society, where some people are more equal than others for whatever the reason.
 

Good2Golf

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I'm wondering where all the classic liberals, personal choice and freedoms people have gone.

This nanny state nonsense made sense while we were not vaccinated, but now that we are, we should just be given the choice to decide what risks we want to accept as individuals.
Dude, you and others like-minded keep voting for the nanny state that nannies with…yup…your money!

#shouldntbesurprised
 
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