• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

All things Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV)

hattrick72

Member
Reaction score
29
Points
380
Wow, there are some real good candidates for Ordinary Men commenting in here.....

I got the jabs so I wouldn't have career restrictions, my wife got the jabs back in January so she could travel to the US when the border reopens and visit family. Neither one of us would've got the jabs if we couldn't gaurantee getting them at the prescribed interval. Nevermind mixing and matching vaccines......

Unless I am mandated to get boosters, I'm not getting the boosters. My wife and I both agree, when the vaccine is approved for kids under 12, ours will not be getting the jab. If that means one of us have to quit our job to home school our kids, so be it. We just can't justify putting our kids at risk when the virus has a minimal impact on children. In five years, when the dust settles and we see the myocarditis and other side effects are indeed not serious, we will allow them to be vaccinated.

Imagine not being told you get a fever after a vaccine, how concerning would it be to you if a strong fever developed a day after inoculation? My wife is a nurse at a correction facility, every female inmate that got their second dose of Moderna started their menstrual cycle the next day. Some had their cycle five days prior, others already through menopause, and a few going through conversion therapy also started, despite their drugs. The mensuration lasted 4-7 days. It was a "known" side effect that may affect some women, but nothing official because they are now started
to study it in February. My wife was quite surprised when it affected every inmate that chose to get the second dose and not just 30-50%.

In my opinion the messaging has been terrible since the start of the pandemic. I understand that the government wants everyone to get inoculated because they feel it is in everyone's best interest. I cannot fathom why they would encourage people to get AZ when other countries were pausing for further investigation. We then went ahead and paused it after a bunch of people followed the advice and got their jab. This lead to the NACI to say it is okay to mix and match vaccines and it may give more immunity. Fast forward a month and the WHO/CDC state that mix and match isn't studied and advises against it.... So we have political influence to mitigate the damage the vaccine rollout has caused and they look to be dictating science and policy. Now we have Canadians that can't travel as the majority of the world believe they are unvaccinated.

My mother in law is immunocompromised, she was infected with the virus twice in the last year, and recovered in under a week with only minor symptoms. She is now vaccinated with JJ and hasn't caught the virus despite living in a US hot spot.

I just don't see the need to segregate society based on a vaccine, but I understand that society feels much differently. If as a society we decide to segregate based on vaccine status, I will happily accept the consequence of home schooling and a reduced family income.
 

hattrick72

Member
Reaction score
29
Points
380
The chief problem with our system is one of delivery. We have infinite demand, and too many people are too eager to come to ER for even the most minor issues, when they could see their own MD or go to a walk-in clinic. Secondly, there are lots of folks with no sick benefits, and if they take time off for medical reasons, they don't get paid. Therefore, they tend to show up in ER after dinner, creating a large backlog of cases to attend, creating undue stress on the system. We also live in an era of instant gratification. People are unwilling to wait for an appointment, when they can come to ER and have their issue dealt with now.

If we made improvements to primary care - like co-locating a walk-in clinic beside an ER for example, perhaps costs would come down, and outcomes would go up. For example, it costs the system about $700 for you to be triaged at ER, for your seasonal cold. The base cost to the system for a WIC or family MD for the same visit is about $45.
I agree with this. It is pathetic that in Canada, walk-in clinics are only open during business hours. Very few are open on weekends and if they are, they are open from 1100-1500, and only take 44 patients. If you go with a single symptom of COVID, you must have a negative test result before you can be seen........ So sinus infection, go get that test, wait to to 3 days and go to walk in clinic. Or go to ER and wait your turn, which can be hours.

Walk in clinic next to ER manned 24 hours would be a great start.

In the US, I fell at the theater and smoked my knee off the stair. Walked into a walk in clinic at 2230, and was out of there by 2330 with an MRI in hand. Got an ear infection, woke up in pain at 0330, went to walk in clinic 15 minutes drive away, came out with ear drops to treat the infection before 0430.

We are going to be living with COVID for a long time, the health care system has had a year to get prepared. We need to really start thinking about providing full services for surgeries, cancer, specialist appointments et. all without shutting down during an outbreak. Why did 80% of the population get vaccinated if we can't provide regular services for every Canadian.
 

Fishbone Jones

Army.ca Myth
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
170
Points
710
Can we not make this thread political? Plenty of places to insult others elsewhere on this site.
This thread by its very being, is political. Right, left, conservative or liberal. It's all here and all political. This thread would not exist, except for politics.
 
Last edited:

daftandbarmy

Army.ca Relic
Reaction score
2,847
Points
1,060
More good news.... if you're into marathons vs. sprints:

Will things ever return to normal? It doesn't look that way right now

New CDC data makes the dangers of the delta variant clear — we have to face that we're in this for the long haul






The message of the Centers for Disease Control's documents obtained by the Washington Post and the New York Times on Friday isn't specified in those documents themselves, but in one epidemiologist's reaction to them. "Herd immunity is not relevant as we are seeing plenty of evidence of repeat and breakthrough infections," Dr. Jeffrey Shaman, a Columbia University epidemiologist, told the Post.

If you're like me, you will probably need a moment to let that sink in. Until Friday morning, July 30, 2021, herd immunity was the goal we were all working towards. Remember when President Biden set his goal of vaccinating 70 percent of the population by July 4? What followed was an extended discussion among experts and politicians about whether that goal would amount to the country reaching "herd immunity." The hope was that COVID would turn out to be similar to chicken pox or measles or polio, diseases for which herd immunity was long ago reached with vaccines. When enough people had been vaccinated, those diseases simply went away, with only occasional outbreaks of measles in communities which lost their herd immunity, due largely to anti-vaccine movements.

Most experts believed that it would take vaccinating somewhere between 70 and 90 percent of Americans for the country to reach something resembling herd immunity. The fact that COVID is a global pandemic, with many countries in the developing world lacking widespread vaccine distribution, argued against the kind of herd immunity eventually reached against diseases like polio. Still, the goal seemed within reach if enough of us could be convinced to get vaccinated. At that point, it was hoped, normal life in this country could resume, with people eating in restaurants, going to the movies, attending concerts, singing in church choirs, playing sports and attending school uninhibited by requirements to social distance or keep wearing masks.

On Friday, that hope went out the door. The CDC internal health document obtained by the Post and the Times urges federal health officials to "acknowledge the war has changed." What changed the CDC's approach to COVID was "unpublished data from outbreak investigations and outside studies showing that vaccinated individuals infected with delta may be able to transmit the virus as easily as those who are unvaccinated," according to the Post.

Herd immunity has to do with transmissibility. A disease goes away when enough people become immune to the infectious agent such that it can no longer be transmitted among a population. The CDC on Friday essentially admitted that being vaccinated against COVID doesn't make you immune. You can still contract the disease, especially the delta variant, and having become infected, you can still transmit the disease to others whether you have symptoms or not.

If you get down in the weeds of the CDC findings, you find that the lack of immunity provided by the current vaccines has to do with the way the antibodies produced by the vaccines act within the body. When the COVID vaccines are injected, the antibodies produced by the human immune system appear mostly in the blood. "Some antibodies may make their way into the nose, the main port of entry for the virus, but not enough to block it," the Times reported Friday. "The Delta variant seems to flourish in the nose, and its abundance may explain why more people than scientists expected are experiencing break-through infections and cold-like symptoms."

Vaccinated people can spread the virus almost as easily as unvaccinated people because the so-called "viral loads" in their noses and upper respiratory tracts can be nearly as strong as in unvaccinated people. When vaccinated people become infected, the virus attempts to travel from the nose and throat into the lungs. This is where the antibodies built up by the vaccines go to work, preventing a severe enough infection to need hospitalization.

"The vaccines — they're beautiful, they work, they're amazing," Dr. Frances Lund, a viral immunologist at the University of Alabama at Birmingham, told the Times. "But they're not going to give you that local immunity." Vaccinated people will be contagious for a much shorter time, Dr. Lund told the Times. "But that doesn't mean that in those first couple of days, when they're infected, they can't transmit it to somebody else."

There's the rub about COVID. Since vaccinated people can still "catch" the delta variant of COVID and transmit it to other people almost as easily as unvaccinated people, "in some sense, vaccination is now about personal protection — protecting oneself against severe disease," Dr. Shaman, the Columbia University epidemiologist told the Post. So it's not about the "herd," it's just about you.

This is why the CDC's findings this week are a game-changer. It's also why the CDC has released new guidelines suggesting a return to mask-wearing, even among vaccinated people, in areas of the country that are experiencing an uptick in breakouts of the disease. Getting the vaccine doesn't keep you from getting the disease, and it doesn't keep you from spreading it.

Of course, this might raise the question among the unvaccinated of why they should get the vaccine at all. If everybody can still get the disease and spread it to the extent that the CDC is going back to saying we've got to wear masks again – all of us, vaccinated and unvaccinated alike – what's the use?

For one thing, all the available vaccines provide protection against coming down with a bad enough case of the disease that you'll need to be hospitalized and run the risk of dying. And vaccines at least lower the possibility that you'll contract the disease and be likely to spread it. So we've gone from expecting that the vaccines will make us immune to the knowledge that the vaccines will protect us from severe infection and the symptoms of "long COVID" and the possibility of dying from the disease.

The message is, COVID is as contagious as chicken pox, Ebola or the common cold, and getting vaccinated isn't going to prevent you from catching it. But it will save your life.

That is a more nuanced argument for the vaccines, and it will have to be the argument that health care professionals and politicians take to the population that isn't yet vaccinated. Telling them that getting vaccinated is some kind of cure-all would be a lie, so tell them the truth.

I think the other thing the CDC findings published on Friday tell us is that the unvaccinated population is no longer "the problem." They are part of the problem, because they can of course catch the disease and spread it, but, as we just learned, so can those of us who are vaccinated. We may be returning to the point where "the problem," if there is one, is more about people who refuse to adhere to mask mandates, or those politicians who, faced with outbreaks of the disease, refuse to impose them.

If there is an enemy in the war against COVID it's the virus itself, which is far more virulent than we knew. It is mutating, and mutations like the delta variant are making the disease much worse than it was in the beginning. I think we will have to assume that there will be new mutations, new variants, meaning this disease is going to be with us in one form or another for years – maybe forever, like the seasonal flu and the common cold. We're going to have to learn to live with the disease even if more and more Americans come around to getting vaccinated, because while the vaccine may protect us as individuals, it will never protect us as the "herd" we hoped to become by getting vaccinated. We're never going to reach herd immunity, but it behooves us as a nation to reach a herd understanding that for better or worse, we're all in this together.



Will things ever return to normal? It doesn't look that way right now
 

Quirky

Sr. Member
Reaction score
89
Points
330
Alberta is moving in the right direction as of August 16th, will be interesting to see how many more people lose their minds over their policies.
 

dapaterson

Army.ca Relic
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
1,607
Points
890
Stopping testing, stopping isolation, stopping asking... most are more worried about people losing their lives over Alberta's policies.
 

Quirky

Sr. Member
Reaction score
89
Points
330
Only those who refuse to get vaccinated should worry. Get your shot go live your life. Albertas model will be followed when the rest of Canada sees their streets aren’t lined with corpses.
 

PMedMoe

Army.ca Legend
Donor
Reaction score
362
Points
880
Only those who refuse to get vaccinated should worry. Get your shot go live your life. Albertas model will be followed when the rest of Canada sees their streets aren’t lined with corpses.
Exaggerate much? :rolleyes:
 

MilEME09

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
503
Points
940
As an Albertan I think the policy shift is a dumb move, removing the requirements to isolate if testing positive or symptomatic and only making it recommended is a bad choice. We have already learned that people, especially those who don't believe in the vaccine won't listen to the rules any way, so they won't follow the recommended advice.
 

hattrick72

Member
Reaction score
29
Points
380
More good news.... if you're into marathons vs. sprints:

Will things ever return to normal? It doesn't look that way right now

New CDC data makes the dangers of the delta variant clear — we have to face that we're in this for the long haul






The message of the Centers for Disease Control's documents obtained by the Washington Post and the New York Times on Friday isn't specified in those documents themselves, but in one epidemiologist's reaction to them. "Herd immunity is not relevant as we are seeing plenty of evidence of repeat and breakthrough infections," Dr. Jeffrey Shaman, a Columbia University epidemiologist, told the Post.

If you're like me, you will probably need a moment to let that sink in. Until Friday morning, July 30, 2021, herd immunity was the goal we were all working towards. Remember when President Biden set his goal of vaccinating 70 percent of the population by July 4? What followed was an extended discussion among experts and politicians about whether that goal would amount to the country reaching "herd immunity." The hope was that COVID would turn out to be similar to chicken pox or measles or polio, diseases for which herd immunity was long ago reached with vaccines. When enough people had been vaccinated, those diseases simply went away, with only occasional outbreaks of measles in communities which lost their herd immunity, due largely to anti-vaccine movements.

Most experts believed that it would take vaccinating somewhere between 70 and 90 percent of Americans for the country to reach something resembling herd immunity. The fact that COVID is a global pandemic, with many countries in the developing world lacking widespread vaccine distribution, argued against the kind of herd immunity eventually reached against diseases like polio. Still, the goal seemed within reach if enough of us could be convinced to get vaccinated. At that point, it was hoped, normal life in this country could resume, with people eating in restaurants, going to the movies, attending concerts, singing in church choirs, playing sports and attending school uninhibited by requirements to social distance or keep wearing masks.

On Friday, that hope went out the door. The CDC internal health document obtained by the Post and the Times urges federal health officials to "acknowledge the war has changed." What changed the CDC's approach to COVID was "unpublished data from outbreak investigations and outside studies showing that vaccinated individuals infected with delta may be able to transmit the virus as easily as those who are unvaccinated," according to the Post.

Herd immunity has to do with transmissibility. A disease goes away when enough people become immune to the infectious agent such that it can no longer be transmitted among a population. The CDC on Friday essentially admitted that being vaccinated against COVID doesn't make you immune. You can still contract the disease, especially the delta variant, and having become infected, you can still transmit the disease to others whether you have symptoms or not.

If you get down in the weeds of the CDC findings, you find that the lack of immunity provided by the current vaccines has to do with the way the antibodies produced by the vaccines act within the body. When the COVID vaccines are injected, the antibodies produced by the human immune system appear mostly in the blood. "Some antibodies may make their way into the nose, the main port of entry for the virus, but not enough to block it," the Times reported Friday. "The Delta variant seems to flourish in the nose, and its abundance may explain why more people than scientists expected are experiencing break-through infections and cold-like symptoms."

Vaccinated people can spread the virus almost as easily as unvaccinated people because the so-called "viral loads" in their noses and upper respiratory tracts can be nearly as strong as in unvaccinated people. When vaccinated people become infected, the virus attempts to travel from the nose and throat into the lungs. This is where the antibodies built up by the vaccines go to work, preventing a severe enough infection to need hospitalization.

"The vaccines — they're beautiful, they work, they're amazing," Dr. Frances Lund, a viral immunologist at the University of Alabama at Birmingham, told the Times. "But they're not going to give you that local immunity." Vaccinated people will be contagious for a much shorter time, Dr. Lund told the Times. "But that doesn't mean that in those first couple of days, when they're infected, they can't transmit it to somebody else."

There's the rub about COVID. Since vaccinated people can still "catch" the delta variant of COVID and transmit it to other people almost as easily as unvaccinated people, "in some sense, vaccination is now about personal protection — protecting oneself against severe disease," Dr. Shaman, the Columbia University epidemiologist told the Post. So it's not about the "herd," it's just about you.

This is why the CDC's findings this week are a game-changer. It's also why the CDC has released new guidelines suggesting a return to mask-wearing, even among vaccinated people, in areas of the country that are experiencing an uptick in breakouts of the disease. Getting the vaccine doesn't keep you from getting the disease, and it doesn't keep you from spreading it.

Of course, this might raise the question among the unvaccinated of why they should get the vaccine at all. If everybody can still get the disease and spread it to the extent that the CDC is going back to saying we've got to wear masks again – all of us, vaccinated and unvaccinated alike – what's the use?

For one thing, all the available vaccines provide protection against coming down with a bad enough case of the disease that you'll need to be hospitalized and run the risk of dying. And vaccines at least lower the possibility that you'll contract the disease and be likely to spread it. So we've gone from expecting that the vaccines will make us immune to the knowledge that the vaccines will protect us from severe infection and the symptoms of "long COVID" and the possibility of dying from the disease.

The message is, COVID is as contagious as chicken pox, Ebola or the common cold, and getting vaccinated isn't going to prevent you from catching it. But it will save your life.

That is a more nuanced argument for the vaccines, and it will have to be the argument that health care professionals and politicians take to the population that isn't yet vaccinated. Telling them that getting vaccinated is some kind of cure-all would be a lie, so tell them the truth.

I think the other thing the CDC findings published on Friday tell us is that the unvaccinated population is no longer "the problem." They are part of the problem, because they can of course catch the disease and spread it, but, as we just learned, so can those of us who are vaccinated. We may be returning to the point where "the problem," if there is one, is more about people who refuse to adhere to mask mandates, or those politicians who, faced with outbreaks of the disease, refuse to impose them.

If there is an enemy in the war against COVID it's the virus itself, which is far more virulent than we knew. It is mutating, and mutations like the delta variant are making the disease much worse than it was in the beginning. I think we will have to assume that there will be new mutations, new variants, meaning this disease is going to be with us in one form or another for years – maybe forever, like the seasonal flu and the common cold. We're going to have to learn to live with the disease even if more and more Americans come around to getting vaccinated, because while the vaccine may protect us as individuals, it will never protect us as the "herd" we hoped to become by getting vaccinated. We're never going to reach herd immunity, but it behooves us as a nation to reach a herd understanding that for better or worse, we're all in this together.



Will things ever return to normal? It doesn't look that way right now
I find China's response to the Delta variant interesting.

They are not issuing new passports or renewing passports at this time. If you travel there it is a 21 day quarantine in an airport hotel, followed by a 14 day quarantine at the province you are traveling to in hotel, then 7 days isolation at your hotel or apartment before you are able to travel freely.

This variant may very well be as scary as the CDC is saying.
 

PuckChaser

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Mentor
Reaction score
518
Points
1,060
So you're basing the seriousness of the variant solely on how much tyranny the CCP is willing to impose on people? A 42 day quarantine for a virus that has an incubation period of 3-7 days (typically, can max out at 14) is just ridiculous.

The UK just had it's 4th wave. 72% of the population is fully vaccinated. It lasted a week, and they removed mandatory mask mandates. 70% eligible (18+) is clearly the line where the fear mongering over case counts can stop. The UK has just proven that level of vaccination (and they're not wasting doses on teenagers) effectively delinks rising cases from hospitalization rates. Daily summary | Coronavirus in the UK
 

PuckChaser

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Mentor
Reaction score
518
Points
1,060
Nothing is 'proven" about covid,.....and probably won't be for years and years. To use that word on whatever "side" you're on is totally wrong.
Except for cloth masks, lockdowns and kids being super spreaders, right? Those are legit proven where actual science and data that goes against the "COVID-19 is the worst pandemic ever" narrative is just misinformation? This has to be the least scientific pandemic in human history, where you cannot even use the scientific method to question hypothesis or find alternate COAs. We might as well wear plague masks filled with garlic or piss on rags to cover our noses from the COVID-19 fumes...

Give me a break.
 

Quirky

Sr. Member
Reaction score
89
Points
330
As an Albertan I think the policy shift is a dumb move, removing the requirements to isolate if testing positive or symptomatic and only making it recommended is a bad choice. We have already learned that people, especially those who don't believe in the vaccine won't listen to the rules any way, so they won't follow the recommended advice.

Crazy part is, the same people that were "follow Dr. Hinshaws advise" during the pandemic are now doing a 180 and are completely against her new policy. These new policies are backed by science, which people just don't like - it hurts their feelings and they likely find it offensive that Alberta has moved past the pandemic. Anti-vaxxers and vaccinated aren't self-isolating anyway at this point, no one is. If a few vaccinated get screwed up because of it, that's their own fault. They're basically managing it like any other virus now. Get your vaccines and move on, this is going to be the new norm now.
 
Top