Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring?

[army]

Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring?





Posted by ****ey from Canada on November 20, 1998 at 23:04:49:



I‘ll post my usual Friday evening message - always a good time to hope for a response.

Anyway - with regard to all these ads I‘ve been seeing about education and the forces, and the overall attempt by the forcres to raise the overall education standard, I ask, to what end? So that when the CF finally runs out of money everyone can get a civvy job? Or because it‘s pleasing to the eyes: "look, here we Private Bloggins - he‘s currently finishing his B.Sc in nuclear physics, and on the Weekends enter triumphant, action movie music, he‘s a weapon-packing madman, trained to kill.

Anyway, sure that‘s been around for a long time, but saracasm aside, how does it serve the forces, realistically, to have troops with Bachelors and Masters degrees - seriously?

Clarior hinc honos.

 

[army]

Re: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring?





Posted by Sgt. Tyrell Cdt. Higher Learning from Canada on November 21, 1998 at 13:19:52:


In Reply to: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring? posted by ****ey on November 20, 1998 at 23:04:49:



It gives the troops a potential for making it in the civilian world if they ever get out, instead of being just another grunt on min. wage. The Forces can give a future to those who wouldnt get one otherwise. Do you think that we should just have stupid troops?

 

[army]

Re: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring?





Posted by ****ey from Canada on November 21, 1998 at 14:36:08:


In Reply to: Re: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring? posted by Sgt. Tyrell Cdt. on November 21, 1998 at 13:19:52:



It would be a good idea, next time you comment, to read what had been said.

If you had read my message properly, you would have seen that I was asking how does education serve the CF as an organisation.

Please pay attention.

 

[army]

Re: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring?





Posted by Michael M. O‘Leary from Owen Sound ON Canada on November 21, 1998 at 16:17:00:


In Reply to: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring? posted by ****ey on November 20, 1998 at 23:04:49:



The prevailing theory is that attendance at an institution of higher learning imparts greater cognitive skill and a wide variety of social skills and reasoning ability. Further, such candidates are expected to come away with a broader understanding of Canada‘s place and role in the world, political issues, etc. If the military was pushing for officers to take structured course sets enabling this I might agree. Regardless, there seems to be no valid mechanism to test the validity of such expectations.

If lack of ‘degreed‘ officers is such a significant weakening element, why has the officer corps not evolved into two distinct and readily identifiable groups: the "degreed, thinking" and the "non-educated, non-thinking". They have not, because education is not the root casue of the problem. It is the degree of hierarchical conformity which should be exanmined more closely. Those officers which allow themselves to become moral slaves to every bad idea of a weak system, whether educated or not, become part of the problem. Those trying to be part of the solution, because they don‘t conform to the system, fail to achieve promotion. They then leave, by dismissal, quitting in disgust or simply to seek a work environment which allows them to be thinking individuals.- this is our rumoured brain drain.

Higher average education CAN lead to a stronger officer corps and an improved military. BUT only if the environment these "new" officers are expected to perform within is changed sufficiently to allow them to do so.

By all means, lets have a better educated officer corps, but let‘s not delude ourselves into thinking that this single element is, itself, a solution.



The Regimental Rogue

 

[army]

Re: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring?





Posted by Tim St.Onge from Halifax NS Canada on November 23, 1998 at 20:01:38:


In Reply to: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring? posted by ****ey on November 20, 1998 at 23:04:49:



It‘s my humble opinion that a post secondary education can augment the CF leadership dynamic, but is by no means mandatory. I am a jr. NCO with 10 yrs in the CF Comm Reserve, and as a junior leader, have benefited from the mental expansion furnished by my ongoing studies at university. Even though a B.A. in Philosophy has little to do with the functions of a Telephone Lineman in the CF, it has a real effect upon the use of my melon for prioritizing, planning, and effective decision-making. It‘s basically how one interprets and puts to use that which s/he has for a resource-base. I feel that education has myriad collateral effects beyond any intended purpose.

Dilseachd Os Barr

 

[army]

Re: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring?





Posted by A Corporal from Canada on November 23, 1998 at 22:13:17:


In Reply to: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring? posted by ****ey on November 20, 1998 at 23:04:49:



Welcome to the world of high tech. If you can‘t understand the operation manual, how can you operate the eqpt?
I have to question your line of thought. Although no doubt well intentioned, your wording leaves the door open for the interpertation that you advocate have mindless drones as CF members.
Perhaps you could expand your post.

 

[army]

Re: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring?





Posted by Alter Ego from Canada on November 24, 1998 at 09:39:06:


In Reply to: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring? posted by ****ey on November 20, 1998 at 23:04:49:



Education is not a substitute for intelligence. I have seen many young sirs, with degrees, that were long on book learning, but very short on common sense. This seems to be a trend that I am seeing more and more, these days. Tell me how someone who lived with Mom and Dad while they paid for his education and otherwise shielded him from the harsh realities of life, is somehow smarter than the rest of us?
The only thing a Bachelors degree proves is that you can organize your time effectively and that you can regurgitate whatever your profs are saying. That‘s it. Give me a platoon full of intelligent, under-educated farm boys, rather than highly ‘educated‘ theoreticians who spend all their time looking for a "better" read ‘less demanding‘ way of doing things.

Alter Ego
Uneducated Boor But doing quite well in spite of that fact. Or maybe because of that fact...

 

[army]

Re: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring?





Posted by Dav Langstroth Interested Observer from Orillia Ontario Canada on November 25, 1998 at 08:38:11:


In Reply to: Re: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring? posted by ****ey on November 21, 1998 at 14:36:08:



Interesting comments and views so I guess that I‘ll have a kick at the cat

The perfect warrior no longer exists in the North American enviroment. The hierarchy of needs have been met, very few want for anything that they cannot attain legally or otherwise so the drive, ambition and fanaticism that is required to create warriors of superior quality is no longer available.

The greater the educational background of a warrior the less likely he/she is to follow. I have observed both ends of the educational scale in the CF and have found that despite the best efforts of the Officer Corps to produce a superior superior, the hoops and jumps that were once required to attain a leader of knowledge and accomplishment has diminished to the point of politics and greed.

Among the finest officers that I have worked with came from the ranks as a JrNCO or SrNCO with some experience of getting the job done on the pointy end. No amount of book theory, discussion or training will accomplish the same results. There are exceptions but they are fewer than the ones that have earned my respect, loyalty and friendship.

Perhaps one of the requirements for future members of the CF Officer Corps should be a term as a JrNCO/SrNCO. It takes time but isn‘t it worth it in the long run?

All the Best

Dileas Gu Brath

 

[army]

Re: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring?





Posted by K Knight from Iqaluit NT Canada on November 25, 1998 at 16:49:47:


In Reply to: Re: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring? posted by Dav Langstroth on November 25, 1998 at 08:38:11:



No, I don‘t think that one of the requirements for commisioning should be service as a Junior or Senior Non-commisioned Officer. Officers and Non-Commisioned Officers hold two very different roles within the system, both are needed. If we accept the premise that a good officer does not make a good NCO, then surely we must be able to accept the fact that a good NCO does not always make a good officer.

The practice of commisioning Jr-NCO/Sr-NCO‘s from the ranks as is common in many militia regiments has done 2 things in my experience.

1. Created a Junior Officer who looks upon his pl as a 30 man section. with all the perils of micro management

2. Sapped the NCO corps at the Cpl/MCpl level of individuals who probably would have better served the organization as Sgts and Warrant

I have, however, worked with some excellent officers who had previous service as Non-commisioned officers. But..., I have also worked with several excellent officers who have never seen previous service as Non-commisioned officers.

If there was a simple solution to questions of military leadership such as the one you propose we probably would not be discussing this topic.

 

[army]

Re: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring?





Posted by Dav Langstroth Interested Observer from Orillia Ontario Canada on November 25, 1998 at 19:41:14:


In Reply to: Re: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring? posted by K Knight on November 25, 1998 at 16:49:47:



K.Knight It‘s nice to meet someone that is adamant about their opinions but for the most part even though you clearly stated "no" you appear to agree with me. Accurate or not as the above staement may be, what do you believe makes the difference between a good and bad officer without getting into personalities? What are the qualities that you have personally observed that has made your statement so clear and understandable? I‘m not trying to pick a fight or piss in your cornflakes...I‘m trying to see if we‘re on the same net when refering to "good‘ and "bad" officers. Terms of reference are best established at the beginning of a good discussion rather that sort the mess out later, Eh?

I would also aske you why you believe that the officers that were not previously NCOs were as good as you say they were? What type of training did they receive that the others did not? Was it a matter of "the cream rising to the top" or plain old ****house luck? As I am personally involved in the training of CF personel, I look forward to your responses.

All the Best

Dileas Gu Brath

 

[army]

Re: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring?





Posted by Mary Harrison Cpl for ever from Canada on November 26, 1998 at 20:23:57:


In Reply to: Re: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring? posted by Dav Langstroth on November 25, 1998 at 19:41:14:



Ok Dav, I see your point, and I see KK‘s, but, getting into the training aspect of Officers/NCO‘s - isn‘t the training they receive on their first course really a good mark of the leader they will be?

Education plays a role in the leadership potential of a person, but the leadership of the training staff you received on your GMT for example has probably stuck with you througout your years.

I‘ve worked with officers who were trained by very professional Snr NCO‘s and treat every Snr NCO they meet after that with respect for their trade knowledge and leadership. I‘ve also worked with officers that were trained by cruel and ignorant Snr NCO‘s and treat every Snr NCO they meet after that with disregard and rudeness. It sure made my job harder as an SQMS to tell those officers to lay off and let me do my job.

It doesn‘t really matter if an officer has CFR‘d or not - it‘s all in the way they were trained and treated when they first joined the mob that set the tone as to how to treat others.

Just an opinion.

SNS

 

[army]

Re: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring?





Posted by K Knight from Iqaluit NT Canada on November 26, 1998 at 21:33:27:


In Reply to: Re: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring? posted by Dav Langstroth on November 25, 1998 at 19:41:14:



In all reality Dav I really think that alot of the problems with military leadership is that a large number of the traditions that were emplaced on officers during training have ceased to be taught.

There should be an emphasis placed on the lowest levels of leadership training LFC JNCO and PH II upon the traditions and concepts that separate the troops from the officers. NOT in the traditional sense but in the sense that we all have very different jobs to do, and that by attempting to do someone else‘s job while allowing you‘re own to slide is unacceptable.

In all honesty the halmark of a good leader is selflessness. I have found that those officers and NCO‘s who are more concerned about THIER own welfare rather than that of the troops have been lacking. I have had officers that have been carried by their Warrants, I have had officers who have been 1/2 hr late for thier OWN O-Group, but the fact of the matter is that when push came to shove they stood up for the troops usually cause they couldn‘t get any deeper in ****, and at the end of the day the pl functioned. I have also worked for officers who have been PT gods, Tacticians on the level of Patton who were absolutley unbearable to work for because they did not care about the welfare of the troops.

Prehaps the best way to but it is that the Army is a Unique organization, and more democratic in nature in a way. Certainly we have more discipline that the other arms of service, but this is to keep people from realizing the amount of personal choice that is inherient in land operations particularily in the Infantry. You see when the Captain of a ship orders a course change, everybody on the ship makes a right turn at the same time. The tech working on the line in the Airforce, is actually fairly detached from the whole process he goes out fixes the airplane, the pilot gets in and goes off to war and scares himself to death ‘cause he never fired his cannon at night.... The soldier on the otherhand must make a conscious decision to take the next bound toward the objective.

This is why we must have good leadership in the CF at all levels. Anyways I‘ll shut up now.

 

[army]

Re: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring?





Posted by Ted Underhill from Victoria BC Canada on November 27, 1998 at 12:33:40:


In Reply to: Re: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring? posted by Mary Harrison on November 26, 1998 at 20:23:57:



In reply to Mary Harrison:

Absolutely! I couldn‘t agree more with you. The first course that a soldier takes, be they and Officer or NCM will determine
their attitudes towards leadership, towards NCM‘s or Officers, and a whole host of other issues. That first GMT or PH 1/2 is
usually so different from their previous civvy experiences that it is not surprising that almost every soldier remembers vividly
their recruit course. The manner in which their section commanders, platoon warrant and platoon officer conducted themselves forms
the basis for deciding what is the norm in their platoon and by extension the CF. How does this relate to higher educations? I
am in favour of anyone pursuing a higher education, but that will not necessarily guarantee a better leader. If the basics were
not there before, they certainly won‘t be there after a four year undergraduate program. Number one on my test of leadership - lead
by example! Number two, know your subordinates and promote their welfare. They don‘t teach that in University!

 

[army]

Re: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring?





Posted by s, graham on November 28, 1998 at 11:59:58:


In Reply to: Re: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring? posted by A Corporal on November 23, 1998 at 22:13:17:



Quite true. Used to be ww1, WW2 they felt if the man didn‘t have too much thinking on board then " Charging that machine-gun made sense"
Once the man started rationalising things the job wouldn‘t get done...today the notion is ludicrous. As you say who will run the equip.? Today on the modern battlefield ‘The smart soldier is the good soldier‘!

 

[army]

Re: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring?





Posted by Michael A. Dorosh from Calgary AB Canada on December 21, 1998 at 12:17:22:


In Reply to: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring? posted by ****ey on November 20, 1998 at 23:04:49:



How does it serve the troops to have a BA? Introducing them to problem solving and thinking beyond the Grade Nine level surely can‘t hurt, can it? Soldiers have to be able to process a lot of information in this day and age - going beyond the basics of weapons how many weapons in an infantry platoon - C7, C6, C9, 84mm, SRAAW, grenades, 9mm pistol, communications equipment, first aid, arctic survival, navigation, tactics, fieldcraft, etc. look at the restrictions placed on troops during peacekeeping - rules of engagement, target identification, etc. etc. Getting troops to use their brains in different ways can‘t seem to be a BAD idea, if it doesn‘t come at the expense of field training. Too much field training can be just as bad as not enough, and a mix of challenges are healthy. The Second Division got its *** kicked in Normandy in part due to the unhealthy emphasis it placed on battle drill training, which didn‘t adequately prepare them for combat not that anything really could. Not to say BA programs would have changed that, of course. But the point is it is possible to train soldiers in different areas military, educational, citizenship, to their benefit, both for use while in the service and, as you point out, once they leave the military.

And don‘t scoff at the idea of preparing soldiers for civilian life. The point of a peacetime army and a Militia is to give a basic indoctrination to military ways to as many people as possible, so when it hits the fan for real, you have a wide array of people with at least a LITTLE bit of a clue as to how to soldier. No point training 1000 guys for 10 years, to the exclusion of others - cause they‘re probably gonna get killed in the first two weeks of a war. If you have 10,000 troops with a bit of experience, they can train 100,000 in time of war, and while they will not be as effective - well, look at how we fought WWI and WWII - in 1939, even PPCLI, RCR and R22eR went overseas mostly composed of militiamen and civilian-soldiers - the regs stayed behind. So offering BAs to guys is going to be a draw for some to join the Forces - if you have any better ideas on recruiting, now is the time.

 

[army]

Re: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring?





Posted by Michael A. Dorosh from Calgary Canada on December 23, 1998 at 00:04:26:


In Reply to: Re: Bachelor of Arts in Weekend Warrioring? posted by Dav Langstroth on November 25, 1998 at 08:38:11:



I agree completely that officers should come from a background as NCO‘s or at the least a year or two in the ranks. But what does that have to do with university education? I don‘t think you responded to the question.