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Battle Honours for Afghanistan

pbi

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So what do folks here think about the US Army (and USMC) system in which each battalion, regardless of Arm/Branch, has a guidon/colour, which IIRC  is paid respects (in some form...) on parade? At present we confine this in our Army to Infantry colours, Armoured guidons, and the guns of the Artillery. Engineers, as far as I know, do not have any similar honour-bearing device beyond the single all-encompassing honour "Ubique".

Should we broaden the use of ceremonial, honour-bearing devices such as colours and guidons?

Cheers.

Mod edit:  fixed spelling of Afghanistan in thread title
 

Zipper

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Agreed.

Tradition you know.

However if we do go to all arms regiments, that may change.
 

McG

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pbi said:
Should we broaden the use of ceremonial, honour-bearing devices such as colours and guidons?
Do any such devices exist at formation level anywhere in the Army?
 

pbi

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MCG said:
Do any such devices exist at formation level anywhere in the Army?

I don't think so. As far as I know, the Brigade and Area flags that exist are really only what we would call "camp flags": they have no honorific function. I am not confusing these with the Brigade and Area command pennants that signify the presence in garrison of the Commander.

Cheers
 

a_majoor

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Just an observation, while doing a recce in Camp Grayling MI for a concentration, absolutly every building had some sort of pennant or device flying in front, many of these were company flags. Rumor has it the Base commander was rather preturbed when he descovered "our" building had no corresponding Canadian device (although I think he was satisfied when a Canadian flag was produced and flown....)

Perhaps we are just at one extreme of the pendulum, and the Americans are at the other.
 

Zipper

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a_majoor said:
Perhaps we are just at one extreme of the pendulum, and the Americans are at the other.

Agreed with that. They have a flag for everything. We have a in field flag for our regiment (armoured) that has our colours and that is it. Otherwise our Standard stays home.
 

George Wallace

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a_majoor said:
Just an observation, while doing a recce in Camp Grayling MI for a concentration, absolutly every building had some sort of pennant or device flying in front, many of these were company flags. Rumor has it the Base commander was rather preturbed when he descovered "our" building had no corresponding Canadian device (although I think he was satisfied when a Canadian flag was produced and flown....)

Perhaps we are just at one extreme of the pendulum, and the Americans are at the other.

We are not that much different.  Every Unit and Sub-Unit on most of our Bases, fly their Camp Flags.  The Service Bn fly their Camp Flag in front of their Unit Lines, both in Camp and in the Field.  RCEME flags fly beside the RCD flag in front of the RCD Maint Bldg.  Go to Wainwright during a major concentration and you will see all Biv Locations have Camp Flags or signs.

GW
 

a_majoor

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George Wallace said:
We are not that much different. Every Unit and Sub-Unit on most of our Bases, fly their Camp Flags. The Service Bn fly their Camp Flag in front of their Unit Lines, both in Camp and in the Field. RCEME flags fly beside the RCD flag in front of the RCD Maint Bldg. Go to Wainwright during a major concentration and you will see all Biv Locations have Camp Flags or signs.

GW

This was even better. Imagine a long road lined with "H" huts. Each battalion has one for the HQ, with an elaborate device (sometimes with battle streamers), and a number of huts for the companies, which also have their own individual devices as well. Repeat for each Battalion (the soldiers themselves were in tentage and giant concreate accomodation buildings elsewhere).  Inside a few buidings which I toured (since we were moving in after the MI National Guard finished their concentration), some talented artists had apparently made unofficial (?) platoon devices as well, which were hung over the Pl Commander or First Sgt's desks....Walking down some lines was a bit like being at a parade.
 

Murneydevil6

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Does anybody know if because of our role in Afganistan the regiments who have been deployed their will obtain  battle honours? Haha as much as the Liberals want it to be its not 100 percent peacekeeping....its battle baby. I know the British added Iraq and Afganistan to the respective units who served there.
 

Michael OLeary

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If you check the forums, you'll find some previous discussions on battle honours, try searching on that term as well as Medak.

For some background reading, this page gives the terms of reference for selection of Second World War Battle Honours, the last time the Canadian Army published them:

http://regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/secondworldwar-btlhnrs.htm
 

Murneydevil6

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Yes, I am aware of the rules for battle honours I'm just curious if they will be awarded for Service in Afganistan.
 

PNR

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Although our soldiers are participating in "combat operations", I feel that it is a bit premature to begin adding battle honours to our Regiments.
 

Franko

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I'll just weigh in here for a sec....

Battle Honours are just that....honours awarded for Battles, not firefights.

Medac was a bit bigger than a firefight.

We haven't, hopefully never, will see a battle in Afghanistan.*


*Sound of Franko beating the hell out of his desk screaming "Knock on wood"  *

Regards
 

Long in the tooth

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The Government has set up an alternative to Battle Honours similiar to the US Unit Citation that 2 PPCLI (and 5 RAR and 72 Tk Bn US) won at Kapyong.  The Governor General's Citations is issued permanently to members in the unit at the time of hostilities and temporarily by troops posted into those units who were not there.  This is in line with the 'swimming pool' 2VP wears.

Battle honours have been awarded long after the fact so I would not discount them being issued if a unit had 10 or 12 fatalities on a tour.  Canadian battle honours were awarded in huge numbers to units up to the 60s.  A unit from N.S. made application for a battle honour 4 years ago from WW2.  In my opinion the claim was quite questionable as a platoon found itself 'attatched' to a British unit under German attack.  There were minimal casualties and the operation was never authorized.

A rude and crude calculation from WW2 based on several units' casualties and honours gives a ratio of 10 to 15 dead per honour, with twice as many wounded.

I'm such a pack rat.....
 

Michael OLeary

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Worn Out Grunt said:
Battle honours have been awarded long after the fact so I would not discount them being issued if a unit had 10 or 12 fatalities on a tour.  Canadian battle honours were awarded in huge numbers to units up to the 60s.  A unit from N.S. made application for a battle honour 4 years ago from WW2.  In my opinion the claim was quite questionable as a platoon found itself 'attatched' to a British unit under German attack.  There were minimal casualties and the operation was never authorized.

I believe you are talking about the Princess Louise Fusiliers and "Arnhem '45".  The PLF had been pursuing that honour since the issue of battle honours was first raised after the war, and it was disallowed at that time for lack of supporting documenatation.  They repeated the request periodically, and it was not until about 1998 that certain Divisional Orders were opened to public access that they were able to substantiate their claim that a Support Company fielded by the PLF was involved in the operation in question.  The award was then granted based on information that had not been available to NDHQ for the preceding 50 years.  The unit met the criteria at para 14 of the Cdn Army Orders linked above, and was supported in their claim by the specific tasks in those Div Orders.

 

reccecrewman

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After reading the very informative letter on the Battle of Panjawai, it got me thinking.  Is it possible for our Regiment's serving in Afghanistan to add laurels to their colours?  If so, what would the criteria be for this to happen?  Just curious.

Regards
 

silentbutdeadly

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I just was wondering how Panjawai wasn't a battle but a Firefight compared to Medak, I am not here for a flame, but was wondering! Whats your criteria?
 

reccecrewman

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Thanks George, it actually did answer the question I had as well as give me some other useful info I did not know before.

Regards
 

reccecrewman

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Actually, I do have a new question that arises from reading this thread front to back............ One of the posters mentioned the "swimming pool" worn by members of 2VP.  Do current serving members of 2PPCLI still wear that US Presidential Citation on their DEU's?

Regards
 
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