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British Military Current Events

Good2Golf

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I was thinking Art Deco condor-like, so more Third Reich than Rhodesian security squad.

Brits normally have roundy, flourishy thingies, with lions and other majestic animals…why suddenly the angular art motif? 🤔
 

FJAG

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I was thinking Art Deco condor-like, so more Third Reich than Rhodesian security squad.

Brits normally have roundy, flourishy thingies, with lions and other majestic animals…why suddenly the angular art motif? 🤔
That's just getting worse and worse, isn't it?

:unsure:
 

daftandbarmy

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I was thinking Art Deco condor-like, so more Third Reich than Rhodesian security squad.

Brits normally have roundy, flourishy thingies, with lions and other majestic animals…why suddenly the angular art motif? 🤔

More 'wannabes' without the 'wanna suffer' ;)

220px-Logo_of_the_Parachute_Regiment.png
 

Kirkhill

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I was thinking Art Deco condor-like, so more Third Reich than Rhodesian security squad.

Brits normally have roundy, flourishy thingies, with lions and other majestic animals…why suddenly the angular art motif? 🤔
Snap!

 

Kirkhill

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Have now scanned this a bit more and find the artillery dispositions interesting.

1) In 3 (UK) Div neither the 12th nor 20th ABCT's have any integral close support artillery at all.

2) all of 3 (UK) Divs artillery is concentrated in 1 DRSBCT (a total of 2 Reg F and 1 Res F self propelled close support regiments; 2 Reg F and 1 Res F MLRS regiments and 1 Reg F STA regiment). This is actually a good mix and appears to be a revival of the divisional artillery concept. For me the question that remains is how the artillery C&C structure will function seeing as the guns subordinated into a recce manoeuvre brigade rather than an artillery one.

3) In 1 (UK) Div, 7 LMBCT has one Reg F and 1 Res F L118 regiment;

4) also in 1 (UK) Div, 4 LBCT has only one Res F L 118 regiment;

5) (Just as an aside, 19 Brigade is organized to 8 Res F light infantry battalions and 2 Res F light recce regiments which are not otherwise allocated to other formations. (basically a reserve pool)

6) 7 Air Defence group contains 2 Reg F and 1 Res F air defence regiments;

7) 16 Air Assault BCT has one Reg F para L118 regiment;

8) the Intel, Surv and Recce group (basically a total force intelligence org) has one Reg F MUAS arty regiment and one Reg F TUAS arty regiment;

9) 3 Cdo Bde retains one Reg F Commando L118 regiment

A key factor is that every Res F arty unit has a defined role to add batteries to Reg F regiments (somewhat of a 70/30 structure, albeit some Reg F regiments-the more quick reaction ones-are 100/0 and one Res F regiment in 4 LBCT has a 0/100 role)

I generally like this. One comment is that perhaps 3 (UK) could have done with a larger Res F to Reg F ratio but I expect the current allocation speaks to the fact that the UK considers the NATO role there a quick reaction/short notice one in large part.

The purpose of the general duties pool of inf and recce in 19 Brigade speaks somewhat of homeland security aided and abetted by cap badge protection.

I love the 101 & 102 Operational Sustainment Brigades (and their total force mix) - we need that desperately.

I also find it interesting that engineer resources for both 1 and 3 (UK) Divs are centralized in two Engr Bdes.

🍻

My sense is tha 1 UK Div won't be deploying 4 and 7 Brigades as formed brigades on many occasions. I believe that they will be rotating battle groups in and out of various countries and that the reserve units of 19 Brigade will be supplying augmentation with individuals and possibly up to the company level.

Beyond that all of the Reserve units will likely have a Home Defence / Civil Defence priority tasking.

I'm also thinking that all of those Deep Strike and ISR assets could be forward deployed in Troops to support the Rangers, SFABs and the Lt Battle Groups of 1 UK Div. A couple of Watchkeepers and GMRLSs could have a significant effect on an insurgency. And allow the Brits to contribute without having to risk large numbers at the coal face.
 

Kirkhill

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A South African appreciation of Britain's overseas network

145 sites in 42 countries

 

daftandbarmy

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A South African appreciation of Britain's overseas network

145 sites in 42 countries



And then there's the Commonwealth countries and tiny little islands like, you know, unsinkable aircraft carriers like Diego Garcia:

 
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FJAG

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My sense is tha 1 UK Div won't be deploying 4 and 7 Brigades as formed brigades on many occasions. I believe that they will be rotating battle groups in and out of various countries and that the reserve units of 19 Brigade will be supplying augmentation with individuals and possibly up to the company level.
That's my take on it.
Beyond that all of the Reserve units will likely have a Home Defence / Civil Defence priority tasking.
There was a phase in the 60s where we did that - some reserves war-ish roles the others snakes and ladders - terrible for morale. Folks left in droves.
I'm also thinking that all of those Deep Strike and ISR assets could be forward deployed in Troops to support the Rangers, SFABs and the Lt Battle Groups of 1 UK Div. A couple of Watchkeepers and GMRLSs could have a significant effect on an insurgency. And allow the Brits to contribute without having to risk large numbers at the coal face.
I'm more inclined to think that they'll deploy the kinder and gentler L118s.

My guess is that the Rangers and SFAB will see most of the operational deployments while 4 and 7 Bde's (and even 19 Bde) become more of a feeder pool for them with some limited deployments but a fair number of foreign exercises.

🍻
 

Kirkhill

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There was a phase in the 60s where we did that - some reserves war-ish roles the others snakes and ladders - terrible for morale. Folks left in droves.
I love the 101 & 102 Operational Sustainment Brigades (and their total force mix) - we need that desperately.

I also find it interesting that engineer resources for both 1 and 3 (UK) Divs are centralized in two Engr Bdes.

Don't you find an element of conflict between those two thoughts?

Yes, youngsters wanting to go bang-bang might be put out by escorting little old ladies from flooding basements. On the other hand the skills you need for those occasions are the skills you find in 101,102 and 104 logistics brigades, together with those of the engineer and medical brigades. The same brigades you say you wish we had.

Maybe not everybody is focused on the "destroy" bit. Perhaps we can encourage both tribes to join the club.

Besides, I think you might be under-estimating the willingness of eager youngsters to lend a hand in trying situations. And learning how to build a rope bridge or build and cross a floating bridge, rapel, or climb a cliff or a wall, stabilize a leg or patch a bleeding wound all have tactical applications. Heck, even building a solid sand-bagged wall is a tactical requirement.
 

dapaterson

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Perhaps we can look at skillsets in terms of cost and time for training and cost and time to maintain, and assign roles appropriately to part-time and full time components.

Not "Wah! The Reg F gets to do X and I really really want to do X but I'm unable or unwilling to make the time commitment to do so!" sort of whining to MND.
 

daftandbarmy

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Perhaps we can look at skillsets in terms of cost and time for training and cost and time to maintain, and assign roles appropriately to part-time and full time components.

Not "Wah! The Reg F gets to do X and I really really want to do X but I'm unable or unwilling to make the time commitment to do so!" sort of whining to MND.

I don't see how all that 'science' stuff factors into the Train to Excite imperative?

star trek spock GIF
 

Blackadder1916

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There was a phase in the 60s where we did that - some reserves war-ish roles the others snakes and ladders - terrible for morale. Folks left in droves.

From a 1962 issue of CMAJ, an explanation of the "Role of the Army in National Survival" from MGen A.E. Wrinch who as "Major General Survival" was responsible for the Canadian Army National Survival Programme.

Abstract
The Canadian Army was given eight responsibilities in National Survival or Civil Defence. Principles and assumptions, on which planning was based, were agreed upon. The allotted tasks included: (1) a warning system with the information source connected up to a central decision-making office and down to Canada-wide warning dissemination agencies; (2) a radiation monitoring system composed of some 2000 stations connected to the warning system; (3) provision of forces and equipment for immediate rescue operations in areas damaged by nuclear detonations. Canada has been unique in her organization and concept of operations; no other army has these duties and no other country has a similar organization in being. The task is not finished; a disciplined rescue force trained and equipped must be maintained, fallout shelters are needed, adequate plans at all levels of government must be prepared.

And from a 1962 Army Historical Section report, this caught my attention. It probably neatly sums up the accepted approach to Canadian "civil defence" during the world war and as we moved into the Cold War.
On 1 March 1949 the Minister of National Defence told the Defence Council that a Civil Defence organization could not be kept in a state of preparedness for long when there was no "real function" to perform. Complete organization should be undertaken only as close to an emergency as possible.
 

dapaterson

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If the leadership of an infantry unit can't make infantry training exciting, then that's nothing that additional tasks or roles will solve.
 

FJAG

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Don't you find an element of conflict between those two thoughts?
Nope.
Yes, youngsters wanting to go bang-bang might be put out by escorting little old ladies from flooding basements. On the other hand the skills you need for those occasions are the skills you find in 101,102 and 104 logistics brigades, together with those of the engineer and medical brigades. The same brigades you say you wish we had.
There are plenty of folks who want to do things other than go "bang bang in the woods" every day. They like being mechanics and medics and logisticians and fin clerks because they find those jobs interesting, finds it helps them to get a civilian job, lets get to hang around with people like them and drink beer and - every once in the while - get to go into the woods and go "bang bang" and drive big trucks.

I've done flood fighting and firefighting and its basically scut work for the vast majority of the people called out. You do get a level of satisfaction from being out there and helping people but quite frankly it takes little training and preparation. Sure some of the toolsets for LUSAR take some teaching and practice, but it's not a job where you will intellectually challenge someone for long. Sitting around waiting for your annual fire season or flood season quickly becomes tedious.

Disaster relief work would be much easier if provincial emergency measures organizations had enough of the right sandbagging and barrier laying equipment and fire fighting equipment and bigger civilian volunteer organizations and municipalities would stop approving the building of subdivisions in flood zones and on the slopes of hills filled with kindling. It's not climate change that's complicating things - its our unbridled expansion onto land that's dangerous to build on.

I've got nothing against disaster relief work, BUT as a secondary task that you get called into when it actually happens when all civilian resources are exhausted. The military reserves' primary job should always be war fighting and in my books being in a maintenance company or transport platoon or a fin clerk or a cook in the military is war fighting. More importantly, on the day that you actually need to fight, you'll never have enough maintainers and truckers and fin clerks and cooks unless you have them in the reserves.

Maybe not everybody is focused on the "destroy" bit. Perhaps we can encourage both tribes to join the club.
You are way off base if you think the reserves are a "destroy" force. Even if they had their crap together.

The issue is having a credible force for defence and a properly organized reserve force provides a part of a credible force at a reasonable cost.

The reserves are not a club (regardless of how many of D&Bs former COs think it is). The military is an organization that is the last resort for a nation to use when nothing but violence will do. We're not an organization that needs to bring the snake eaters and the tree huggers together in a rousing chorus of "kumbaya". But, as a military organization we do need to bring together a wide variety of people with a wide variety of skill sets.

Sorry, mate. Let those for whom civil defence is the priority form their own club with their own gear and their own songs. Instead of trying to find kinder, gentler raison d'ĂŞtre for the reserves why don't we get back to the purpose of the Canadian Forces as established in the NDA:

14 The Canadian Forces are the armed forces of Her Majesty raised by Canada and consist of one Service called the Canadian Armed Forces.

There's a reason why the term "armed" is in that sentence. And do you want to know something else - there's no provision anywhere in the NDA that says that the reserve force will be the unarmed, or less-armed component.

🍻
 

daftandbarmy

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If the leadership of an infantry unit can't make infantry training exciting, then that's nothing that additional tasks or roles will solve.

I agree. As it turns out 'Exciting' isn't as high a priority as 'Career Enhancing' for some COs, unfortunately.
 

Kirkhill

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Who the feck said that Civil Defence had to be the primary focus of any Military Organization? It wasn't me. On the other hand learning skills that come in useful when the world has gone to crap is not a bad thing, nor does it detract from being a better warfighter. Not every day is spent on the ranges.

And while you are waiting to reinvest the Fulda Gap perhaps you can put all those trucks and radios to some useful purpose other than drifting from one training ground to another.

Run away with your Kumbaya.
 

daftandbarmy

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Who the feck said that Civil Defence had to be the primary focus of any Military Organization? It wasn't me. On the other hand learning skills that come in useful when the world has gone to crap is not a bad thing, nor does it detract from being a better warfighter. Not every day is spent on the ranges.

And while you are waiting to reinvest the Fulda Gap perhaps you can put all those trucks and radios to some useful purpose other than drifting from one training ground to another.

Run away with your Kumbaya.

One thing we don't practise as part of 'civil defence' training is riot control.

When the 'Big One' hits, you can bet that's going to be a skill that's in high demand - in Vancouver especially.

This is what happens when there's no road salt. Imagine what it's going to be like when there's no food, water or medicine:

 

Kirkhill

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Floating Bridge 1946.1.jpg

Here's a skill that might have come in handy in BC. Building and crossing. Isle of Wight December 1946. Typical English winter.

Brew Up Isle of Wight 46.jpg

Same lads, same ex having a scoff. Called off the ex to hunt for escaped prisoners.

Next stop, after leave, Palestine.
 
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