- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
www.thesun.co.uk/artic...33,00.html
British / US Blue on Blue Incident - Merged
- Thread starter The Rifleman
- Start date
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Wow, was i right in reading that no action was taken against the pilots?
Simply put, wow. The whole video is just amazing to see all that taking place, they saw the orange panels too. Thats truely disgraceful.
Simply put, wow. The whole video is just amazing to see all that taking place, they saw the orange panels too. Thats truely disgraceful.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
orange panels - maybe orange rockets. Who the f### has seen orange rockets on a military vehicle? Toy army truck maybe - did they use toys for AFV recognition before they deployed?
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
I was going to say the same thing but wasnt sure. Square Orange rockets must be a real danger for Aerial reservists. They seemed outragiously unproffessional. Seeing this sort of thing doesnt really inspire confidence no does it. Especially as the pentagon buried it for that last few years and it doesnt seem like the sods who did it got in any trouble. Truely shocking, especially if they'r really a Lt-Col and a Major, where'd they get the promotions? In Christmas Bon-Bons?
- Reaction score
- 4
- Points
- 430
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/06/nmatty106.xml
The A-10 transcript provides more detail.
The A-10 transcript provides more detail.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 260
I'm out of my lane a bit here. I would appreciate any feed back from anyone in our AF as to what they would do if they had a wing man point out big orange panels on vehicles?? Like a CF-18 pilot past or pressent or any fast movers for that matter.
I do think they have to stop giving these national guard cowboys big toys.
Call sign MANILA sounds like some sort of C&C he without question or confirmation said no friendlies in your area. Instant reply. Probably looked up at some big screen and if its on TV it must be true. None of the call sign POPOV A-10's gave any indication they were in any sort of danger to the controllers. Why not take a second to check with the Brit's.
When your C&C takes away the possibility of it being a friendly they started making crap up. Orange rockets yeah those Iraqi's are trying to make us think they just have toy weapons. (And who the hell refers to anyone they talk to on military channels as Dude???).
This is one of many incidents now with blue on blue from National Guard pilots is there no will to change the way they operate. If that happened in Canada we would probably disband the Sqn after a lengthy inquiry completely in the public view.
It disturbs me that they make us play in the same sandbox as these yahoos.
I do think they have to stop giving these national guard cowboys big toys.
Call sign MANILA sounds like some sort of C&C he without question or confirmation said no friendlies in your area. Instant reply. Probably looked up at some big screen and if its on TV it must be true. None of the call sign POPOV A-10's gave any indication they were in any sort of danger to the controllers. Why not take a second to check with the Brit's.
When your C&C takes away the possibility of it being a friendly they started making crap up. Orange rockets yeah those Iraqi's are trying to make us think they just have toy weapons. (And who the hell refers to anyone they talk to on military channels as Dude???).
This is one of many incidents now with blue on blue from National Guard pilots is there no will to change the way they operate. If that happened in Canada we would probably disband the Sqn after a lengthy inquiry completely in the public view.
It disturbs me that they make us play in the same sandbox as these yahoos.
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 410
Navyblue,
We are only as good as the information that is passed on to us at any one time.
The fact that they are National guard OR reserve pilots does not mean anything at all. Regular airforce pilots do not have permanent billets and they are passed on to regional guard/reserve units to serve their career. Most of these guys have tons of experience. Unfortunately, if we do not have IFF capabilities for our vehicles while the US troops in the area do.... guess what. we risk becoming a target... nothing personal. If tactical positioning is not being tracked by the FAC and data passed on to AWAC aircraft... the CAS aircraft are flying blind... and making good time
We are only as good as the information that is passed on to us at any one time.
The fact that they are National guard OR reserve pilots does not mean anything at all. Regular airforce pilots do not have permanent billets and they are passed on to regional guard/reserve units to serve their career. Most of these guys have tons of experience. Unfortunately, if we do not have IFF capabilities for our vehicles while the US troops in the area do.... guess what. we risk becoming a target... nothing personal. If tactical positioning is not being tracked by the FAC and data passed on to AWAC aircraft... the CAS aircraft are flying blind... and making good time
TangoTwoBravo
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 3,760
- Points
- 1,110
Navy Blue,
Without getting into the specifics of this case, be careful judging and applying blanket statements such as "cowboys" and "yahoos".
Cheers
Without getting into the specifics of this case, be careful judging and applying blanket statements such as "cowboys" and "yahoos".
Cheers
A
aesop081
Guest
Navy_Blue said:
Navy_blue,
I dont fly CF-188s, but let me tell you, as someone who look at things on the ground from the air, that you are over generalizing and have no serious clue as to what you are saying. Everything we do happens in a split second. regardless of what actualy happenned, right or wrong, you are NOT in a position to call these guys "cowboys" and "yahoos". You do NOT know what its like to make decisions at 300 knots, you do NOT know what the ground war looks like from above......i will catch crap for saying it, but you need to remain in your area of expertise.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Navy Blue said,
“I'm out of my lane a bit here. I would appreciate any feed back from anyone in our AF as to what they would do if they had a wing man point out big orange panels on vehicles?? Like a CF-18 pilot past or pressent or any fast movers for that matter. “
Let me try and answer some of your questions. As a past FAC and Air controler and one who has flown in an F-18 on CAS mission I have a small insite.
“I do think they have to stop giving these national guard cowboys big toys.”
National Guard and Reserve AF are very capable and experienced pilots, I have FAC’d many of them in training and in combat, they are very professional if you can get by the easy going radio procedure.
“Call sign MANILA sounds like some sort of C&C he without question or confirmation said no friendlies in your area. Instant reply. Probably looked up at some big screen and if its on TV it must be true. None of the call sign POPOV A-10's gave any indication they were in any sort of danger to the controllers. Why not take a second to check with the Brit's.”
The A-10s probably don’t have the freqs of the brits, the controller’s and the FACs do.
“When your C&C takes away the possibility of it being a friendly they started making crap up. Orange rockets yeah those Iraqi's are trying to make us think they just have toy weapons. (And who the hell refers to anyone they talk to on military channels as Dude???).”
As for the C&C ie Manila it would appear you have perceived the issue at the centre.
At XXX feet above the ground and flying at speed, running out of fuel, concerned for your ass, I cant comment , you would have to be there. On the Dude issue….well that’s the way they talk on the their means.
“This is one of many incidents now with blue on blue from National Guard pilots is there no will to change the way they operate. If that happened in Canada we would probably disband the Sqn after a lengthy inquiry completely in the public view.”
Here you are out of the lane.
“It disturbs me that they make us play in the same sandbox as these yahoos”
Also here, but I do understand the point your making even if it is being conveyed in a flippant way.
As a past FAC I have some thoughts on the issue.
Blue on Blue conflicts are a sad part of modern war, as they were in the past. It is tragic although not entirely preventable could be minimized more than it has through the adoption of new procedures. These procedures which have been called for in the past through AARs are not expensive nor do they require the purchase of new equipment like IFF. They are quite simple, just a change in sortie and FAC procedures.
They are in summary form as fols:
1. CAS sorties in the combat zone must have a Ground FAC, Air FACs are not enough on their own.
2. Non CAS hunter killer/seek and destroy sorties must never attack within the combat zone unless requested and accepted control by a ground FAC.
3. Other sorties that fly in the overall combat zone CAS mission packet but not directly assigned to CAS must never react to activities in the combat zone without clearance and accepted control by a ground FAC.
4. BAI and deep strike sorties must never react to activities in the combat zone as they transit without clearance and accepted control by a ground FAC.
Simple rules but they make all the difference. Too bad they have not been adopted.
“I'm out of my lane a bit here. I would appreciate any feed back from anyone in our AF as to what they would do if they had a wing man point out big orange panels on vehicles?? Like a CF-18 pilot past or pressent or any fast movers for that matter. “
Let me try and answer some of your questions. As a past FAC and Air controler and one who has flown in an F-18 on CAS mission I have a small insite.
“I do think they have to stop giving these national guard cowboys big toys.”
National Guard and Reserve AF are very capable and experienced pilots, I have FAC’d many of them in training and in combat, they are very professional if you can get by the easy going radio procedure.
“Call sign MANILA sounds like some sort of C&C he without question or confirmation said no friendlies in your area. Instant reply. Probably looked up at some big screen and if its on TV it must be true. None of the call sign POPOV A-10's gave any indication they were in any sort of danger to the controllers. Why not take a second to check with the Brit's.”
The A-10s probably don’t have the freqs of the brits, the controller’s and the FACs do.
“When your C&C takes away the possibility of it being a friendly they started making crap up. Orange rockets yeah those Iraqi's are trying to make us think they just have toy weapons. (And who the hell refers to anyone they talk to on military channels as Dude???).”
As for the C&C ie Manila it would appear you have perceived the issue at the centre.
At XXX feet above the ground and flying at speed, running out of fuel, concerned for your ass, I cant comment , you would have to be there. On the Dude issue….well that’s the way they talk on the their means.
“This is one of many incidents now with blue on blue from National Guard pilots is there no will to change the way they operate. If that happened in Canada we would probably disband the Sqn after a lengthy inquiry completely in the public view.”
Here you are out of the lane.
“It disturbs me that they make us play in the same sandbox as these yahoos”
Also here, but I do understand the point your making even if it is being conveyed in a flippant way.
As a past FAC I have some thoughts on the issue.
Blue on Blue conflicts are a sad part of modern war, as they were in the past. It is tragic although not entirely preventable could be minimized more than it has through the adoption of new procedures. These procedures which have been called for in the past through AARs are not expensive nor do they require the purchase of new equipment like IFF. They are quite simple, just a change in sortie and FAC procedures.
They are in summary form as fols:
1. CAS sorties in the combat zone must have a Ground FAC, Air FACs are not enough on their own.
2. Non CAS hunter killer/seek and destroy sorties must never attack within the combat zone unless requested and accepted control by a ground FAC.
3. Other sorties that fly in the overall combat zone CAS mission packet but not directly assigned to CAS must never react to activities in the combat zone without clearance and accepted control by a ground FAC.
4. BAI and deep strike sorties must never react to activities in the combat zone as they transit without clearance and accepted control by a ground FAC.
Simple rules but they make all the difference. Too bad they have not been adopted.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
the constant reference to orange marker panels - the ones friendlies use - the ones the US insisted we use in GW1 - surely something must have clicked in these cowboy's heads?
I know that the CAS means are secure but "dude"? Is this how we expect a professional officer and pilot to talk - like a surfer bum? It reeks of lack of professionalism and training, and the Yanks know it - probably why the tape was buried until the British media got hold of it
I know that the CAS means are secure but "dude"? Is this how we expect a professional officer and pilot to talk - like a surfer bum? It reeks of lack of professionalism and training, and the Yanks know it - probably why the tape was buried until the British media got hold of it
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
The Rifleman said:
Rifleman,
I hear ya, I was not going to comment on the issue above in my past post but the issue of red panel markers does require a specific reaction from the pilots and Air FACs. It would appear or should I say it is glaringly obvious they did not follow the drill.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
I feel this looks as if it could have been another comms. f$&/§k up, if the controlling agency"Manila Hotel"
tells them there were no friendlies that far north, where did he get this info from, the Brits?from an
AWACS, Its very difficult to know given the info. available.But these pilots had every right to be very
suspicious of vehs. ahead of the FEBA,Orange panels or not. I also feel that interoperbility training
would be better done before opps.and not during,but of course trg. is always the first place to cut
if your politicos wish to save money.Another solution would be for allied counties to do their own
CAS,then yank bashers would have to find another area of dissatisfaction.
Regards
tells them there were no friendlies that far north, where did he get this info from, the Brits?from an
AWACS, Its very difficult to know given the info. available.But these pilots had every right to be very
suspicious of vehs. ahead of the FEBA,Orange panels or not. I also feel that interoperbility training
would be better done before opps.and not during,but of course trg. is always the first place to cut
if your politicos wish to save money.Another solution would be for allied counties to do their own
CAS,then yank bashers would have to find another area of dissatisfaction.
Regards
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
Just to add to 3rd's thoughts and from the historical perspective there are several instances of Canadian ground forces specifically requesting that close air/tac not be provided by certain airforce squadrons due to their repeated ability in hitting friendly forces and missing the bad guys. With this incident in addition to the quotes from the tape already mentioned in this thread was "dude, we are going to jail". Sounds like an admission of culpability to me.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 260
These pilots were not under any extreme stress. No missiles where pointed at them no one was shooting at them. If there was they had every right to turn and bring the wrath of god down on what ever chose to shoot at them. They for all that the video showed they were close to ending the mission and looking for targets of opportunity. POPOV35 "what do you think?" POPOV34 "I think I want to get those (orange) rockets."
Thinking at 300knts or the speed of sound is what being fighter pilot is all about. If you can't make the right choices you have no business being in a fighter. That is why everyone isn't a fighter pilot or a doctor or an astronaut. We have a right to expect accountability from people we pay to drop explosives from the sky. In most military occupations we are required to make split second decision. The difference between someone dieing, a compartment burning, flooding or the ship being dead in the water. A fighter pilot has supposedly gone through allot of training and proved he could make the right choices with everything coming at him all the time. That is why they get to sit in the cockpit. I don't think these guys are villains or malicious but they made a mistake and didn't connect the dots.
I have on occasion caught traffic between the ship and the Sea King. Never once have I heard them refer to the ship or anyone as Dude. I was an infantry signalman in the reserves, at times at the company level it was always pushed that people were listening. These guys knew everything they said and did was being recorded if you went to the end POPOV35 asked if his wingers tape was still on.
The incident in AFG with the PPCLI the pilots failed to listen or read the posted information that we were training in the area. In this case the pilots failed to listen, read or take note of the fact that they were fighting a war with Allied forces. Not only that but remember that they conveniently paint big orange "don't hit me" signs on there equipment. If there was any question, the information about the location of the suspect armour is almost more important than killing them.
This isn't about bashing yanks. I have had the chance to work, talk and socialize with several armed forces now. All NATO Allies or considered modern militarys'. Consistently my impression of US service men has been below the others. My unit was down south while I was in the reserves some fine US service men, in a mess asked a member of our unit why he was sitting with us. He was black by the way. I did a cross pole on NATO to the USS Mckinerny (OHP). They're Helo had a window heater catch fire and spider web the windscreen. I was working with there Hull types so we did FOD rounds at a leasurly pace while watching the helo circle the ship anxious to land and finally some one said "I think they really want to land guys." If that happened on our ship we would most likely go to emergency flying stations. In an other experience an officer came up to me in the Gulf and asked about a duty driver for Commander Soandso. I replied that I wasn't keeping track of US vehicles. Looking at me in my NCD's (HMCS MONTREAL Crest) and standing beside a Canadian warship she said "Oh your not an American??" There are many more stories that are third person so I will not go into it.
Most people I talk to who look up to the US military justify it by saying its so big or they have some excellent equipment. That is no different than playing with the slightly stupid rich kid on the street but only because he has cool toys. There are always exceptions and I have met some very switched on US soldiers and sailors but they are few and far between. I also believe US service people truly have good intentions and for the most part good people. It doesn't forgive ignorance and lack of any situational awareness.
Thinking at 300knts or the speed of sound is what being fighter pilot is all about. If you can't make the right choices you have no business being in a fighter. That is why everyone isn't a fighter pilot or a doctor or an astronaut. We have a right to expect accountability from people we pay to drop explosives from the sky. In most military occupations we are required to make split second decision. The difference between someone dieing, a compartment burning, flooding or the ship being dead in the water. A fighter pilot has supposedly gone through allot of training and proved he could make the right choices with everything coming at him all the time. That is why they get to sit in the cockpit. I don't think these guys are villains or malicious but they made a mistake and didn't connect the dots.
I have on occasion caught traffic between the ship and the Sea King. Never once have I heard them refer to the ship or anyone as Dude. I was an infantry signalman in the reserves, at times at the company level it was always pushed that people were listening. These guys knew everything they said and did was being recorded if you went to the end POPOV35 asked if his wingers tape was still on.
The incident in AFG with the PPCLI the pilots failed to listen or read the posted information that we were training in the area. In this case the pilots failed to listen, read or take note of the fact that they were fighting a war with Allied forces. Not only that but remember that they conveniently paint big orange "don't hit me" signs on there equipment. If there was any question, the information about the location of the suspect armour is almost more important than killing them.
This isn't about bashing yanks. I have had the chance to work, talk and socialize with several armed forces now. All NATO Allies or considered modern militarys'. Consistently my impression of US service men has been below the others. My unit was down south while I was in the reserves some fine US service men, in a mess asked a member of our unit why he was sitting with us. He was black by the way. I did a cross pole on NATO to the USS Mckinerny (OHP). They're Helo had a window heater catch fire and spider web the windscreen. I was working with there Hull types so we did FOD rounds at a leasurly pace while watching the helo circle the ship anxious to land and finally some one said "I think they really want to land guys." If that happened on our ship we would most likely go to emergency flying stations. In an other experience an officer came up to me in the Gulf and asked about a duty driver for Commander Soandso. I replied that I wasn't keeping track of US vehicles. Looking at me in my NCD's (HMCS MONTREAL Crest) and standing beside a Canadian warship she said "Oh your not an American??" There are many more stories that are third person so I will not go into it.
Most people I talk to who look up to the US military justify it by saying its so big or they have some excellent equipment. That is no different than playing with the slightly stupid rich kid on the street but only because he has cool toys. There are always exceptions and I have met some very switched on US soldiers and sailors but they are few and far between. I also believe US service people truly have good intentions and for the most part good people. It doesn't forgive ignorance and lack of any situational awareness.
TangoTwoBravo
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 3,760
- Points
- 1,110
Navy_Blue said:
The rest of your paragraph doesn't accord with your lead-in. You do appear to be "yank-bashing." I have served with soldiers from the US Army in combat and been supported by their aircraft (a variety of types) and I do not share your views. I've had an pair of A-10s deliver fires on a positon quite close to me, and they were very concerned about fratricide. This incident is tragic and obviously mistakes were made, but you are generalizing about a huge group of people. The US are not the only ones who have blue-on-blue.
Cheers
A
aesop081
Guest
Navy_Blue said:
Feeew....thanks for starightening me out there...i dont know what i was thinking :
Now, about the part highlighted in red. Because you think they didnt connect the dots, it gives you the right to call them "yahoos" and "cowboys" ? don't tell me you have never once in your career failed to connect dots ? And what dots would those be ?
Orange panels ? Is that some sort of fool-proof identification ?
"No freindlies this far north" ?
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 260
Its not meant to be bashing its my opinion based on my experience which seems is different from yours. Bashing would be implying they are inherently evil and bent on world domination. Something I don't believe. I know the US is not the only one that has friendly fire incidents. I understand that by shear numbers in a theater would dictate a higher % of blue on blue. IT is still not right and should never be accepted as crap happens. We're in the 21st century folks.
From my experiences all in none combat mostly training situations there people do not compare to our armed forces, not even close. A human life in the CF is worth infinitely more then one in the US. I'll say it again these guys were not bad people prison is not the answer discharge is not the answer take there wings and put them in training billets. They have to live with it forever and the rest of there organization could learn from them.
Orange panels are fool poof enough for the US to request them.
These men knew what they did from the second they got word the Brits where in the area. They knew what an orange placard meant before they did it. MANILA told them no friendlies but they still knew and they were there looking at them.
I will take my comments of Cowboys and Yahoos back it was uncalled for and I apologize if I offended anyone. I just believe incidents like these could be lessend if the will was there.
From my experiences all in none combat mostly training situations there people do not compare to our armed forces, not even close. A human life in the CF is worth infinitely more then one in the US. I'll say it again these guys were not bad people prison is not the answer discharge is not the answer take there wings and put them in training billets. They have to live with it forever and the rest of there organization could learn from them.
Orange panels are fool poof enough for the US to request them.
These men knew what they did from the second they got word the Brits where in the area. They knew what an orange placard meant before they did it. MANILA told them no friendlies but they still knew and they were there looking at them.
I will take my comments of Cowboys and Yahoos back it was uncalled for and I apologize if I offended anyone. I just believe incidents like these could be lessend if the will was there.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Navy Blue - no need to apolagise, the Pilots in this instance were cowboys. We know they are not all like that. And this from yesterdays press makes it even worse:
THE pilot in the “friendly fire” horror is now in charge of training other US fliers to kill, The Sun can reveal.
The airman, nicknamed Skeeter, was promoted to Colonel with the Air National Guard’s A10 tankbuster training wing at a top US base.
He teaches novices how to dive and strafe targets, as he did in the attack that killed Lance Cpl of Horse Matty Hull.
We showed Matty’s widow Susan the video of the attack, and she said: “Finally I am seeing my husband die at the hands of two imbeciles.” She added: “I am really grateful to The Sun for exposing this.
“I always knew there was something seriously wrong with the circumstances surrounding Matty’s death.”
Yesterday, we shocked the world by publishing the tape at the heart of the incident — filmed from inside the pilot’s A10. It shows the airman — whose Skeeter nickname is US slang for mosquito — break all the rules to shoot up the four vehicle-strong Household Cavalry convoy. He was in radio contact with a colleague flying alongside.
The attack took place on March 28, 2003, seven days into the invasion of Iraq. Skeeter, a member of the 190th Expeditionary Fighter Squadron of the Idaho Air National Guard, was flying his very first combat mission.
That was despite being a military pilot for more than 20 years.
A US Air Force Brigadier General did conduct an inquiry behind closed doors into what went wrong. Its findings were never released. But The Sun has learned that Skeeter and his wingman were cleared of any wrongdoing, with neither pilot being court martialled.
www.thesun.co.uk/artic...89,00.html
THE pilot in the “friendly fire” horror is now in charge of training other US fliers to kill, The Sun can reveal.
The airman, nicknamed Skeeter, was promoted to Colonel with the Air National Guard’s A10 tankbuster training wing at a top US base.
He teaches novices how to dive and strafe targets, as he did in the attack that killed Lance Cpl of Horse Matty Hull.
We showed Matty’s widow Susan the video of the attack, and she said: “Finally I am seeing my husband die at the hands of two imbeciles.” She added: “I am really grateful to The Sun for exposing this.
“I always knew there was something seriously wrong with the circumstances surrounding Matty’s death.”
Yesterday, we shocked the world by publishing the tape at the heart of the incident — filmed from inside the pilot’s A10. It shows the airman — whose Skeeter nickname is US slang for mosquito — break all the rules to shoot up the four vehicle-strong Household Cavalry convoy. He was in radio contact with a colleague flying alongside.
The attack took place on March 28, 2003, seven days into the invasion of Iraq. Skeeter, a member of the 190th Expeditionary Fighter Squadron of the Idaho Air National Guard, was flying his very first combat mission.
That was despite being a military pilot for more than 20 years.
A US Air Force Brigadier General did conduct an inquiry behind closed doors into what went wrong. Its findings were never released. But The Sun has learned that Skeeter and his wingman were cleared of any wrongdoing, with neither pilot being court martialled.
www.thesun.co.uk/artic...89,00.html
Similar threads
