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With regards to the CF is there a difference between SOF and SF?

danteh

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There was a thread I saw on reddit about a fallen American soldier having our jump wings and I saw a comment chain talking about CANSOF and people were talking about how our guys (CSOR, CJIRU, JTF) are not special forces, they are special operation forces. I thought it was a weird argument to have so I googled it and saw that the Americans distinguish the two ie;

"To summarize, Special Operations Forces (SOF) is a generic term that you can use to refer to any and all special operations units. Special Forces is the title of a very specific unit, and is not a generic term for other units." from an article I saw.

I couldn't find anything with regards to the CF and I do understand what the SOF in CANSOF is but would I (or anyone) be wrong by calling our boys in tan special forces rather than SOF?
 
Legally speaking, there are three components to the CAF: The Regular Force; The Reserve Force, and when so constituted, the Special Force.  The latter has not been constituted since the Korean War.  Calling them "Special Operations Forces" ensures we don't confuse them with the component of the CAF.
 
In the US, the term "Special Forces" denotes someone with a Special Forces tab, so they're very careful how they use it. Much like our engineers are colloquially called sappers, but in the US they have a Sapper tab you earn from completing the Sapper Leader Course, so they don't throw sapper around lightly either.
 
PuckChaser said:
In the US, the term "Special Forces" denotes someone with a Special Forces tab, so they're very careful how they use it. Much like our engineers are colloquially called sappers, but in the US they have a Sapper tab you earn from completing the Sapper Leader Course, so they don't throw sapper around lightly either.

To expand on that, the distinction between Special Forces and Special Operations Forces in the modern sense comes from the US terminology where the term Special Forces refers to the US Army 1st Special Forces Command and particularly the 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 10th, 19th and 20th Special Forces Groups (Airborne) more popularly known as the Green Berets. The SF came into their fore during the Kennedy era and Vietnam and continue as very specialized forces trained specifically (but not limited to) unconventional warfare in training and supporting foreign troops within their own countries.

Over the years since Vietnam additional needs for unconventional warfare were identified and a great expansion of the system took place. These newer forces and the umbrella structure to which they belong are called Special Operations Forces. In this respect, 1st SF Command is a subordinate formation to the US Army Special Operations Command (USASOC) which in itself is subordinate to US Special Operations Command (USSOCOM or just SOCOM) - SOCOM commands all Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine SOF as well as the highly specialized Tier 1 Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC)

So in short: in the US, "special operations forces" is the broad based term for all special operations forces while "Special Forces" refers specifically to the Army's Green Beret component.

In Canada, all our special operators belong to the Canadian Special Operations Forces Command (CSOFCOM). The term "Special Force" does not in any way or form relate to special operations forces but instead, as dapaterson points out, is a component of the CF which at this point in time is archaic and not used. It was last used for Korea where various units and individuals of the regular force and reserve force were assigned to the Special Force for deployment with the UN. The Special Force was not employed during Afghanistan and frankly I doubt it ever will be again.

These days in Canada we tend to use the terms "special forces" and "special operations forces" synonymously although the more appropriate term is "special operations forces".

You should note that virtually every country has some type of special operations forces and the terminology varies widely.

:cheers:
 
To further muddy the waters, the growth of CSOR has led directly to the creation of a new trade in the CAF: Special Forces Operator.

When we thinkf of 'Special Operations Forces", we often think of the Tier 1 units - SAS, JTF-2, Delta, SEALs, etc. The guys we think of as the 'doorkickers' who excel in extremely precise and generally quite small and distinct missions- go rescue those hostages; go find and destroy those SCUDs. Go. Shoot this bad guy in the face a couple times. "Special forces" in the US context, which CSOR seems to be mirroring to an extent, still has a definite direct action combat capability, but also trains for and is employed in missions like helping develop and train foreign militaries or paramilitary police for counterinsurgency ops, PSYOPS stuff, etc, working with local militias/tribal groups in insurgency operations, etc. Lots of overlapping stuff, but still some distinctions in the 'flavour' of what they do.
 
Brihard said:
To further muddy the waters, the growth of CSOR has led directly to the creation of a new trade in the CAF: Special Forces Operator.

When we thinkf of 'Special Operations Forces", we often think of the Tier 1 units - SAS, JTF-2, Delta, SEALs, etc. The guys we think of as the 'doorkickers' who excel in extremely precise and generally quite small and distinct missions- go rescue those hostages; go find and destroy those SCUDs. Go. Shoot this bad guy in the face a couple times. "Special forces" in the US context, which CSOR seems to be mirroring to an extent, still has a definite direct action combat capability, but also trains for and is employed in missions like helping develop and train foreign militaries or paramilitary police for counterinsurgency ops, PSYOPS stuff, etc, working with local militias/tribal groups in insurgency operations, etc. Lots of overlapping stuff, but still some distinctions in the 'flavour' of what they do.

It really does get murky.

The US Green Beret Special Forces were never designed to be direct action types (although it is one of the capabilities in their repertoire.) Their entire organizational structure (ODAs, ODBs and ODCs - detachment, company and battalion respectively) were designed to be the adviser core elements of larger foreign formations (company, battalion, brigade/regiment respectively)

Neither were they designed as the combat enablers to support Tier 1 forces which is the role that went towards the 75th Ranger Regiment.

In Afghanistan however the Green Berets core tasks slipped from their traditional unconventional warfare and foreign internal defence to direct action roles often with Afghan partner units. The training of the Afghan National Army, rather then being SF tasks, became the role of the various mentoring teams under Op Phoenix (primarily under the command and manned by rotating National Guard Divisions)

Similarly, in Afghanistan and Iraq, as commanders started to reach down and touch not just high value terrorist targets but also mid value and low value ones, they needed more manpower and the Ranger Regiment started deploying platoons etc independent of Tier 1 operators on direct action missions.

The big difference was that the Green Berets remained an asset of the Combined Joint Special Operations Task Forces (both CJSOTF-Iraq and CJSOTF-Afghanistan) while the Rangers as well as the Tier 1 operators reported to Joint Special Operations Command even though they did missions throughout the same areas of operations. (Don't even get me started at the roles of allied special ops forces and the much later ISAF special ops HQ)

Anyone who would like to work through some of this muddle is encouraged to read A Different Kind of War: The US Army in Operation ENDURING FREEDOM 2001 to 2005 put out by the Combat Studies Institute Press  A pdf copy of which can be found at: http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/csi/docs/DifferentKindofWar.pdf  While this publication does not cover the later phases of the Afghan war, it does cover the timeframe within which the system changed as the US thought Afghanistan was pretty much won and changes like the stand up of Combined Joint Task Force PHOENIX and the emphasis by the US shifted towards Iraq.

For anyone more interested in the history etc of JSOC I would strongly recommend Sean Naylor's Relentless Strike: The Secret History of Joint Special Operations Command which can be purchased here: https://www.amazon.ca/Relentless-Strike-History-Special-Operations/dp/1250014549

:cheers:
 
Hi all,

My name is Lee Berthiaume and I am a journalist covering DND, the CAF and VAC for The Canadian Press.

I am currently working on a story about the unique challenges facing SOF members and their families. I have spoken to retired LGen Mike Day as well as CANSOF and officials from CMP, but was hoping someone on here would be able to tell me their own personal story. Note that I will NOT be asking for any information that may be classified or considered opsec. I am solely looking for personal experience dealing with PTSD and/or OSIs.

I can be reached at lee.berthiaume@thecanadianpress.com or at 613-231-8643. Anyone who comes forward should be willing to be identified by name as well as have their picture taken for the story, which will run next weekend. 

Thank you very much.
 
Not to poop on your idea or anything but you are going to have a VERY hard time finding a CANSOFCOM/former CANSOFCOM member to open up about any of his/her mental health issues and a MUCH harder time finding someone who is willing to disclose their personal information.
 
For anyone interested in reading Mr. Berthiaume's reports on PTSD and OSI in the CAF,

PTSD top diagnosis for troops at risk of being forced from military: records
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ptsd-top-diagnosis-for-troops-in-danger-of-being-forced-from-military-records/article33325549/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&
Lee Berthiaume
OTTAWA
The Canadian Press 
December 14, 2016

Feds unveil new strategy to reduce number of military, veteran suicides
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/feds-unveil-new-strategy-to-reduce-number-of-military-veteran-suicides-1.3620567
Lee Berthiaume, The Canadian Press
Thursday, October 5, 2017

More,

Lee Berthiaume PTSD in the CAF
https://www.google.ca/search?q=%22Lee+Berthiaume%22+ptsd&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=E3H4WczlMtCR8Qf74qSIDQ&gws_rd=ssl

Lee Berthiaume OSI in the CAF
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&ei=FHL4WaLFGojTjwTb2bDACg&q=%22Lee+Berthiaume%22+osi&oq=%22Lee+Berthiaume%22+osi&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i160k1l2.65416.68443.0.69447.7.7.0.0.0.0.159.876.0j7.7.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.7.865...0j35i39k1j0i22i30k1j0i20i263k1.0.CP0oSntc9bQ

Lee Berthiaume on Milnet.ca
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&ei=XXL4Wb3MCeLEjwSqxZfgDA&q=site%3Aarmy.ca++%22Lee+Berthiaume%22+&oq=site%3Aarmy.ca++%22Lee+Berthiaume%22+&gs_l=psy-ab.3...330098.342540.0.343525.17.17.0.0.0.0.125.1303.15j2.17.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.jeg5yJmR7Ig


 
war2001v said:
Not to poop on your idea or anything but you are going to have a VERY hard time finding a CANSOFCOM/former CANSOFCOM member to open up about any of his/her mental health issues and a MUCH harder time finding someone who is willing to disclose their personal information.

Pardon my curiosity, but if
war2001v said:
I'm not actually in the Canadian Forces
let alone SOFCOM, how can you state this as a fact?
 
Sorry if that my statement was incorrect, again I'm not actually in the CF but I did do alot of research and went off topic quite a bit, and I stumbled onto some other documentaries and such, and I learned that they usually do not like disclosing their personal information, at least from what I inferred. It would be hard to find the sources again but I can if you want. Again, I'm not in the Canadian Forces (which I admit I should have mentioned earlier) so take this with a grain of salt.
 
No, thanks, I don't need your sources. But - and I understand the desire to be helpful - please stick to posting about things within your experience.
 
My names ****. Ive been in the CAF for a year now. I never had a purpose until joining the military. I have just completed my first year. I have never done anything great to my views and this is what I want to do. I want to deploy actually do something great. This is where I lack. I need training. Ive noticed, and have looked near and far of what I could do better. I need to change this. I would like to become a better soldier. But I need help. I need someone to train me to become able to do special forces. I have 1 year to until I get my corporals. I am ready to change everything and give everything to become better. If there is a former Special Forces or current member out there, willing to train me. I am ready to be broken mentally and physically to be built back up to the best I can be. There is no restrictions to what can be done. I just need some help. Feel free to email me. This is something I want more then.

Edited for PERSEC by Loachman
 
Welcome to Army.ca

Firstly, I recommend changing your username to something less identifiable. I have removed your name and rank for protection. There is no guarantee of anonymity here, but advertising one's identity may not be a good idea.

Secondly, take some time to explore this Sight and learn from the information already contained in existing threads, in particular, in your case, the CANSOFCOM sub-forum at https://army.ca/forums/index.php/board,73.0.html. Once you've absorbed whatever's in there, feel free to ask any questions for which you have not found answers. In the meantime, you'll probably find answers to questions that have not even occurred to you yet.

I will move this post to that sub-forum soon.

Qapla
 
Look at the requirements to apply for the SOF unit you want to be in.


There are training guides for CSOR, JTF2, and CJIRU available for free online. Mountain Tactical has a program you can purchase.  As well, look into Wes kennedy; former CSOR Operator, for a cost he’ll coach you online and get you a program.
 
LeonT said:
My names ****. Ive been in the CAF for a year now. I never had a purpose until joining the military. I have just completed my first year. I have never done anything great to my views and this is what I want to do. I want to deploy actually do something great. This is where I lack. I need training. Ive noticed, and have looked near and far of what I could do better. I need to change this. I would like to become a better soldier. But I need help. I need someone to train me to become able to do special forces. I have 1 year to until I get my corporals. I am ready to change everything and give everything to become better. If there is a former Special Forces or current member out there, willing to train me. I am ready to be broken mentally and physically to be built back up to the best I can be. There is no restrictions to what can be done. I just need some help. Feel free to email me. This is something I want more then.

Edited for PERSEC by Loachman

Remember that one of the 'special' things about SF is their ability to do even the basics very well, in all conditions. It's not just fitness. Seek out opportunities, during your usual training programs, to become a better all round soldier too.

Nobody likes a guy who can't feed ammo ;)
 
Pickle Rick said:
Look at the requirements to apply for the SOF unit you want to be in.


There are training guides for CSOR, JTF2, and CJIRU available for free online. Mountain Tactical has a program you can purchase.  As well, look into Wes kennedy; former CSOR Operator, for a cost he’ll coach you online and get you a program.

I know this is an old post but if anyone was like me and decided to take a look into the Wes Kennedy program just be advised it is $600 a month. Sadly I had to go through the whole process of apply for it and going through the interview to find that out. No doubt it will get you where you need to go but just be aware of the financial requirement.
 
I read something somewhere that Wes Kennedy isn't a name that is fondly used around the SOF community.

Mainly due to luring people in for his workout plan, charging an arm and a leg, and it turns out to be something you could get from a trainer at a fraction of the price.

There may be other reasons too, but I cannot recall.
 
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