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Canadian army to privatize some weapons training

Navalsnpr

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I don't know if this has already been posted elsewhere, but I would think that it should be in this section

Canadian army to privatize some weapons training

Last Updated Wed, 06 Jul 2005 10:17:12 EDT
CBC News
Federal opposition parties are criticizing plans by the Canadian Forces to hire private contractors to train new soldiers to use weapons.

The army is looking for outside help to teach soldiers, drivers and maintenance crews at its Combat Training Centre (CTC) in Gagetown, N.B., as it begins to boost its numbers by 5,000 regular troops and 3,000 reservists.

The successful applicants will have experience in heavy equipment and weapons. Among other things, they will train recruits how to fire the cannon on the army's LAV-III armoured vehicle.

Until now, the army has handled such combat training in-house.

"This will be fairly new ground for us," said Lt.-Col. Steve Strachan, chief of staff at the Gagetown CTC.

He expects the winning contractors to be people who have left or are thinking of leaving the Armed Forces.

"We are anticipating a little risk that some of the people we have on staff now may opt to take their retirement and take some of these positions," Strachan acknowledged.

Nova Scotia MP Peter Stoffer of the New Democratic Party blames a trend that has seen the military privatize areas such as pilot training and medical services.

"They should have the people on board and in-step in order to do it in-house," he said.

"The minute you start giving it over to companies, when does it stop? What's next?"

The Conservative Party doesn't necessarily oppose privatization of government services.

However, defence critic Gordon O'Connor said the army is being forced into this latest move because military budgets have been cut so often and so drastically over the years.

 
First thought:  they're out of their f*****g minds!

Second thought:  hrm...if they privatize MG training, I could make WAY more than I do now....
 
It was previosuly posted (somewhere sometime ago)

Personally it might be a good thing -- as long the people doing it have REAL qualifictions - not just retired NCO's who may or may not know how to shoot or teach shooting
 
"not just retired NCO's who may or may not know how to shoot or teach shooting"

Of course it will be.  Brotherhood of the sash baby.
 
We'll just form our own union.  Kevin can be in charge.  Weed out all the hacks and only let the truly qualified in.
 
CFL said:
"not just retired NCO's who may or may not know how to shoot or teach shooting"

Of course it will be.   Brotherhood of the sash baby.
damn straight. IF we're real lucky, the first couple guys will be actual shooters, and they'll make sure it's only fellow gunbunnies who get in the club.
 
This type of training has worked before with other systems..... you never know, it may work here.

only time will tell....
 
CFL -That was my assumption - only Sgt's and WO's know how to teach weapons  ::)

They should hire DCRA Master class shooters (dusts off resume  ;) ) rather than someone who regugitates crap from the Small Arms course and does not really understand it


48th - sounds good to me  ;)
 
Navalsnipr said:
Nova Scotia MP Peter Stoffer of the New Democratic Party blames a trend that has seen the military privatize areas such as pilot training and medical services.

Hahaha, the NDP criticizing military cutbacks! I think they're more concerned with whether or not it is a union shop rather than the welfare of the CF.
 
I've seen a fair number of really skilled Cbt Arms Sr NCO's, guys who could shoot, teach, been there done that getting released for medical reasons.  Perhaps if we could hire these guys back as our instructors we could free up a lot of other good troops for things like, hmmmm, posting back to the regiments?

These released guys can't be in the CF due to the universality of service requirements, and I know that "retain with limitations" is rarer the higher in ranks one gets.  We've spent a huge amount in training these guys, they've got a fantastic amount of experience, why waste it by giving them a medical release and booting them out onto the civi economy where they may not do as well?

Besides, the instructors will have much more credibility as former Sr NCO's with a few hard tours under their belts.

That being said, I've also seen school standards positions go to retirees without any credible experience in the field, and the total fiasco they've made of things, too.

DF
 
This isn't a bad idea at all.   The Air Force use civilian instructors quite extensively as does the US military.   The army has used Calien to run its CAX training for years and by all accounts it is a success.   The use of civilians will not be a money saving endeavour but it will provide additional stability for members of units that are tasked all over the country during the summer or for Reserves that are tired of courses being cancelled due to a lack of qualified instructors.   The crux of the matter will be determining what a civilian can and should teach vice what military NCOs must teach.   Part of our individual training system, particularly in the army, rests with socializing the soldier into the military and instilling leadership, ethos, and discipline.   This should not and can not ever be turned over to civilians.
 
I am not overly concerned. I think you'll find most of the civie weapon instructors will be ex military combat arms. If you look at the job ads for them, unless you have our specific military nuances, your not skilled enough for an interview. So one day it's MCpl, Sgt or WO Smith teaching, next week it's Mr Smith. And I doubt Mr Smith will take any more guff than he did in uniform. ;) I really don't see the heartache, you got the same people, different set of clothes, and there's no doubt in anyones mind, we have a shortage of skilled instructors.
 
"Besides, the instructors will have much more credibility as former Sr NCO's with a few hard tours under their belts"

so these Sr NCO would be double dipping then, getting paid big bucks to be instructors and most likely collectlng very pensions too.  Doesn't rigjht to me.  Of course I want the best instructors and mostly they are former CF members, but I don't think helps the cash strapped CF.
 
In fact, some might be triple-dipping, receiving a medical pension on top of a release pension on top of a civi salary.

I never said it was right, but we've adopted the mantra of universality of service, and now we must live with it. 

If you're not deployable, you're not employable. 

As a result we've released some fantastically skilled NCOs whose expertise we badly need in positions which don't, as a matter of fact, require deployability, and then have to take medically fit, deployable leaders from the pointy end to teach narrow, but critical, technical skills when they should be staying at the pointy end leading the soldiers. 

Now, we COULD recognize that not every job in the CF needs to be done by someone who can jet off to Kandahar tomorrow, and accomodate more of these SMEs with medical restrictions...but that would violate universality of service.

DF
 
CFL said:
Hey if anything reduces the stress on guys and taskings I'm all for it.

Absolutely.  We are putting way to much stress on the MCpl to WO rank wrt taskings as far as I am concerned.  And we have been for at least the last 6 or 7 years.
 
devil39 said:
Absolutely.   We are putting way to much stress on the MCpl to WO rank wrt taskings as far as I am concerned.   And we have been for at least the last 6 or 7 years.

1992 would be the date I figure

UNPROFOR
SOMALIA
CYPRUS

Some guys did triple UNPROFOR gigs...
  Of course many of those guys won't walk on grass now.
 
Navalsnipr said:
The successful applicants will have experience in heavy equipment and weapons. Among other things, they will train recruits how to fire the cannon on the army's LAV-III armoured vehicle.

...

He expects the winning contractors to be people who have left or are thinking of leaving the Armed Forces.

"We are anticipating a little risk that some of the people we have on staff now may opt to take their retirement and take some of these positions," Strachan acknowledged.
...
I'd be concerned that we would be creating an entire industry that is dependant on luring qualified pers out of the military in order to fill instructor spots to teach the military.

CFL said:
Hey if anything reduces the stress on guys and taskings I'm all for it.
Intelligent use of some of the 5,000 new positions should do this.  In addition to building up units, put some in the schools & training centres.

ParaMedTech said:
I've seen a fair number of really skilled Cbt Arms Sr NCO's, guys who could shoot, teach, been there done that getting released for medical reasons.   Perhaps if we could hire these guys back as our instructors we could free up a lot of other good troops for things like, hmmmm, posting back to the regiments?
Could we not also create established positions for pers on medical accommodation?  Instead of a Sgt being medically released, he could be posted to a medical accommodation posn in CTC as a LAV gunner instr.  It makes more sense than releasing him only to have him come back as a civi with higher pay and two pensions.
 
MCG said:
Intelligent use of some of the 5,000 new positions should do this.   In addition to building up units, put some in the schools & training centres.
I'm not sure I'm following here.
 
I'd be concerned that we would be creating an entire industry that is dependant on luring qualified pers out of the military in order to fill instructor spots to teach the military.

Well, if you recall when CANCAP stood up in Bosnia, the company lured alot of military members (from the distressed trades that CANCAP was supposed to help alleviate) to work for ATCO-Frontec and later SNC Lavelin.  There will be short term pain as they stand up to meet the requirements of the contract but afterwards, it should settle down.  Bonus side is it may get rid of some of the deadwood in the Sr NCO/WO ranks and provide some movement for the younger fellows.
 
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