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Canadian Federal Election 44 - Sep 2021

PMedMoe

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So what? The statement made referred to a doctor's belief that a) abortion was the murder of an unborn child and b) euthanasia was the pre-mature termination of a human life. Regardless of the law or in the case of abortion, the absence of one, those beliefs need to be respected and adjustments made to ensure that a doctor or any medical staff can work freely within his/her field and not fear repercussions. Referral is a strawman argument. Cellphones and internet access can quickly locate a competent medical team willing to undertake those procedures. Run a search through Google and you will locate a facility in every province and territory. It might not be in your neighbourhood but it is there. And for those who say it should be readily available in the neighbourhood, why? My heart specialist is a 2 hour drive. Want a baby delivered in Trenton, go down the highway to Belleville. If surgery is critical, try Oshawa or Kingston. Why should an abortion clinic be any more available?
Really? What about in very remote areas where they're lucky to have a nurse practitioner or a PA and have to be flown out for medical procedures?

If health care professionals don't want to handle certain cases, maybe they should go into private practice.
 

Altair

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So what? The statement made referred to a doctor's belief that a) abortion was the murder of an unborn child and b) euthanasia was the pre-mature termination of a human life. Regardless of the law or in the case of abortion, the absence of one, those beliefs need to be respected and adjustments made to ensure that a doctor or any medical staff can work freely within his/her field and not fear repercussions. Referral is a strawman argument. Cellphones and internet access can quickly locate a competent medical team willing to undertake those procedures. Run a search through Google and you will locate a facility in every province and territory. It might not be in your neighbourhood but it is there. And for those who say it should be readily available in the neighbourhood, why? My heart specialist is a 2 hour drive. Want a baby delivered in Trenton, go down the highway to Belleville. If surgery is critical, try Oshawa or Kingston. Why should an abortion clinic be any more available?
Erin O'Toole disagrees.


On Friday in a very wet Winnipeg, though, he was asked directly whether a doctor with a conscientious objection to abortion would have to refer a woman to someone else willing to consult or perform it. “Yes,” O’Toole said, “they will have to refer, because the right to those services exists across the country.”
 

mariomike

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Colin Parkinson

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So a doctor that refuse to do an abortion is bad, what if the same doctor refuses to do FGM or believe the requested abortion is due to the fact that the fetus is female?

Way better to allow some ability to refuse than none at all.
 

brihard

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Female genital mutilation is already provided for under subsection (3) of Section 268 of the Criminal Code, “aggravated assault”.
 

Altair

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So a doctor that refuse to do an abortion is bad, what if the same doctor refuses to do FGM or believe the requested abortion is due to the fact that the fetus is female?

Way better to allow some ability to refuse than none at all.
naturally doctors do not need to preform procedures that are illegal.

Abortion isn't illegal.

Not going to lie, pleasantly surprised to see O'Tooles stance on this. Its like he actually wants to win this election and not get dragged down by SOCONs
 

lenaitch

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So what? The statement made referred to a doctor's belief that a) abortion was the murder of an unborn child and b) euthanasia was the pre-mature termination of a human life. Regardless of the law or in the case of abortion, the absence of one, those beliefs need to be respected and adjustments made to ensure that a doctor or any medical staff can work freely within his/her field and not fear repercussions. Referral is a strawman argument. Cellphones and internet access can quickly locate a competent medical team willing to undertake those procedures. Run a search through Google and you will locate a facility in every province and territory. It might not be in your neighbourhood but it is there. And for those who say it should be readily available in the neighbourhood, why? My heart specialist is a 2 hour drive. Want a baby delivered in Trenton, go down the highway to Belleville. If surgery is critical, try Oshawa or Kingston. Why should an abortion clinic be any more available?

If you have been able to simply Google and cold call a non-emergent medical provider and get ready access in Canada without a referral you're experience with our medical system is quite a bit different than mine.

In some areas, abortion access is limited, and if you check the 'rural provider' column in the attached, there are a significant number of zeros.


Folks are focusing on abortion, but a pharmacist is also a medical professional. The big chains don't do small towns, so a single mom-and-pop pharmacy might want to refuse to sell birth control devices, or some other product or advice that offends them. It might be several hours to the next one.

Off topic, but both the missus and I have chronic pain issues. Our family doctor doesn't like NSAIDs. Once you are on a doctor's roster, you have to de-roster before you can go hunting for another. Although not a prescription item, when we mentioned CBD looking for advice, he wouldn't even discuss it. He's a peach.

When I was in law enforcement, I had to deal with everyone that came through the door regardless of whether I agreed with the lifestyle or morals. I expect anyone in a regulated profession, particularly one that is funded out of public funds, to do the same.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Simple, a refusal of service requires a notification to the relevant health authority stating the patient name and service declined and possibly the reason but that may be later. I think that will lessen the number of refusals and allow a method to track how big an issue it is and what is exactly are the issues. If a whole bunch of doctors in one area are refusing to do FGM's, then the health authority knows there is a need to educate immigrants (and which ones) on women rights in Canada. they may also be able to track down who is doing them as well.
 

Blackadder1916

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. . . Regardless of the law or in the case of abortion, the absence of one, those beliefs need to be respected and adjustments made to ensure that a doctor or any medical staff can work freely within his/her field and not fear repercussions. Referral is a strawman argument. Cellphones and internet access can quickly locate a competent medical team willing to undertake those procedures. . . .

No, referral is not a strawman argument. It is one of the professional obligations for the practice of medicine regardless of the patient complaint/request. To exclude that requirement because of a regulated health professional's conscientious objection would be the same as saying that a doctor could adjust the quality of his care based on his personal prejudices.

Two examples of provincial College policies are;
Alberta, a short, succinct declaration

and Ontario, a much longer discussion of a physician's obligation including an explanation of what an "effective referral" entails.
CPSO - Advice to the Profession: Professional Obligations and Human Rights

When 14% of Canadians don't have a primary care physician (family doctor), it's not that easy to "quickly locate a competent medical team willing to undertake those procedures". And some physicians of my acquaintance would not confirm in response to a phone inquiry that they provide such a service for the simple reason that they don't want to paint a target on their back.
 

YZT580

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Sad. Tie a firecracker to a dog's tail and there will be unanimous condemnation. Kill a child while it is in the womb and everyone screams woman's rights to choose and condemn those who think differently. You all should be ashamed of yourselves. Good night.
 

brihard

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Sad. Tie a firecracker to a dog's tail and there will be unanimous condemnation. Kill a child while it is in the womb and everyone screams woman's rights to choose and condemn those who think differently. You all should be ashamed of yourselves. Good night.
And yet I’m not. Have a great night.
 

Altair

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Sad. Tie a firecracker to a dog's tail and there will be unanimous condemnation. Kill a child while it is in the womb and everyone screams woman's rights to choose and condemn those who think differently. You all should be ashamed of yourselves. Good night.
Damn, you are really going off on O'Toole here.

You okay?
 

The Bread Guy

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Just throwing this resource out there in case you want to bookmark it: "Where you can see all the election ads running on media websites"
In 2018, parliament passed an amendment to the Canadian Elections Act that requires large online platforms, including media outlets, to publish a registry of the ads purchased by political parties for display on their sites over the course of an election. This applies to English-language sites that get at least three million monthly visits, French-language sites that get at least one million, and sites in other languages that get at least 100,000.

While the sites have to publish certain kinds of information about the ads that have been purchased, the legislation doesn’t require that the registries themselves take a standard form. Each platform therefore appears to have come up with its own solution and its own place to put the registry on its site. Sometimes, a link is buried in a footer menu. Other times, finding it is more of a journey.

So we thought we’d do our best to offer a one-stop-shop for all the election ad registries we can find, with a particular focus on the country’s media outlets. We’ll continue to add more as they come to our attention ...
 

PMedMoe

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Sad. Tie a firecracker to a dog's tail and there will be unanimous condemnation. Kill a child while it is in the womb and everyone screams woman's rights to choose and condemn those who think differently. You all should be ashamed of yourselves. Good night.

And yet I’m not. Have a great night.
Me either.
 

PMedMoe

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Simple, a refusal of service requires a notification to the relevant health authority stating the patient name and service declined and possibly the reason but that may be later. I think that will lessen the number of refusals and allow a method to track how big an issue it is and what is exactly are the issues. If a whole bunch of doctors in one area are refusing to do FGM's, then the health authority knows there is a need to educate immigrants (and which ones) on women rights in Canada. they may also be able to track down who is doing them as well.
Again, we're talking about legal medical procedures here. You seem to have some fixation on immigrants.
 

dimsum

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Sad. Tie a firecracker to a dog's tail and there will be unanimous condemnation. Kill a child while it is in the womb and everyone screams woman's rights to choose and condemn those who think differently. You all should be ashamed of yourselves. Good night.
But did the dog "ask for it" because of the way they were dressed?
 

Colin Parkinson

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Again, we're talking about legal medical procedures here. You seem to have some fixation on immigrants.
I am using it as an example of what can go wrong if you don't give some room for people's morality to come into play. Immigrants and cultural frictions are a everyday part of my life here. some funny, some harmless and some not.
 

PMedMoe

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I am using it as an example of what can go wrong if you don't give some room for people's morality to come into play.
And I think it's a poor example as FGM is not a legal medical service. The sex-selective abortion, I can understand.
 
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