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CDN/US Covid-related political discussion

Altair

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When dumbfucks misquote and misrepresent what someone said, and the mob picks up the mispresentation, and other dumbfucks act stupidly because of the misinformation, the fault lies with the misinformers.

If a second party can twist something a first party said and then blame third party tragedies on the first party, there's no real meaning to either truth or accountability left.
So the media?
 

Brad Sallows

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Anyone who foolishly repeats the myth that Trump recommended drinking bleach. Or any other lie. People act on (occasionally deadly) information without necessarily ever hearing or reading the original remarks. "CNN said Trump said X, that's good enough for me!"
 

Altair

Army.ca Fixture
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Anyone who foolishly repeats the myth that Trump recommended drinking bleach. Or any other lie. People act on (occasionally deadly) information without necessarily ever hearing or reading the original remarks. "CNN said Trump said X, that's good enough for me!"
What, in your opinion, did Trump say?
 

Quirky

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Anyone who foolishly repeats the myth that Trump recommended drinking bleach. Or any other lie. People act on (occasionally deadly) information without necessarily ever hearing or reading the original remarks. "CNN said Trump said X, that's good enough for me!"
Do we really need people who follow such recommendations, whether they were accurate or not, in the gene pool?
 

OldSolduer

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Do we really need people who follow such recommendations, whether they were accurate or not, in the gene pool?
That they are stupid and gullible is not the issue. They are among us is the issue and it falls to the rest of us to care for them.
 

Quirky

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That they are stupid and gullible is not the issue. They are among us is the issue and it falls to the rest of us to care for them.
Public isn’t okay caring for anti-vaxxers and bleach drinkers but has no issue paying the Billion$ every year on care for obese, smokers and substance abusers?
 

mariomike

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Public isn’t okay caring for anti-vaxxers and bleach drinkers but has no issue paying the Billion$ every year on care for obese, smokers and substance abusers?
Hey. They represent Job Security to a lot of people. :)
 

Brad Sallows

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What, in your opinion, did Trump say?

Your moral cowardice and desire to squirm out of a simple acknowledgement of failure is profound. You wrote the bit about "when president trump was saying take hydroxychloroquine or ingest bleach to combat covid", and all you have to do is find where Trump said or wrote "ingest bleach". If you can't find it, just say so.
 

Altair

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Your moral cowardice and desire to squirm out of a simple acknowledgement of failure is profound. You wrote the bit about "when president trump was saying take hydroxychloroquine or ingest bleach to combat covid", and all you have to do is find where Trump said or wrote "ingest bleach". If you can't find it, just say so.
I am asking in good faith.

I am not trying to argue with you, I think he was the reason behind people ingesting bleach, you do not. That is fine, it really changes nothing about the world we live in in any material way that matters.

I am just trying to better understand your point of view. I find it interesting how two people can here and read the exact same thing, in this case , what former president trump said, and come to two different outcomes. I know how I came to mine, I'm simply trying to understand how you came to yours. Understanding wont make me any more likely to agree with your outcome, same as understanding how I came to mine would not lead you to change your mind, but by understanding at least I can have a different perspective other than it must be blind partisanship.

So I will ask again, and you do not need to answer, that choice is yours, but what, in your opinion, did Trump say?
 

Brad Sallows

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It doesn't matter what Trump said in this case, as long as it was not "Drink bleach".

No-one can possibly get all information directly from the horses' mouths, so people can be misled.

Suppose people should trust and believe media and talking heads and other important people, so that the latter can promulgate instructions and recommendations, so that not every person has to be engaged one-on-one by senior members of government to explain every matter of public interest. Suppose that people not only should do so, but in fact do so. Then people are likely to act on whatever mouthpieces say. If some of that is fabricated or distorted bullsh!t, then the responsibility for people acting on false information lies with the mouthpieces.

When a mouthpiece claims Trump said "Drink bleach" when in fact Trump did not say "Drink bleach", and then someone inclined to favour and follow Trump hears it and acts on it (mouthpieces are trustworthy, therefore the claim about what Trump said must be true), the fault for the harm lies with those who spread the bullsh!t.

Bullsh!tting erodes trust, and happens because a lie told right now advances a political football a couple of millimeters in a preferred direction. There are consequences. For example, when authorities issue evacuation orders and mask mandates and travel restrictions, fewer people obey because they have lost trust. Then the people who spin bullsh!t to move political footballs complain about stupid people who won't do what they're told for the public interest/greater good.
 

Mick

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It doesn't matter what Trump said in this case, as long as it was not "Drink bleach".

No-one can possibly get all information directly from the horses' mouths, so people can be misled.

Suppose people should trust and believe media and talking heads and other important people, so that the latter can promulgate instructions and recommendations, so that not every person has to be engaged one-on-one by senior members of government to explain every matter of public interest. Suppose that people not only should do so, but in fact do so. Then people are likely to act on whatever mouthpieces say. If some of that is fabricated or distorted bullsh!t, then the responsibility for people acting on false information lies with the mouthpieces.

When a mouthpiece claims Trump said "Drink bleach" when in fact Trump did not say "Drink bleach", and then someone inclined to favour and follow Trump hears it and acts on it (mouthpieces are trustworthy, therefore the claim about what Trump said must be true), the fault for the harm lies with those who spread the bullsh!t.

1. Reports that "Trump said drink bleach" are made to mock Trump, in order to score political points. We agree on this. Are any pro-Trump mouthpieces reporting this? Probably not.

2. Those reports, whether they are exaggerated, distorted, or otherwise spun, are made by anti-Trump mouthpieces, aimed at anti-Trump viewers. Are these viewers likely to follow this advice, which has been presented to discredit the president? Probably not.

3. All spin aside, is it possible that viewers witnessed Trump's question regarding the feasibility of "injecting inside" a "disinfectant" during his televised press conference? It's not "drink bleach", but it is the president asking an expert about the possibility of injecting disinfectant.

So, yes, I agree that talking heads and media mouthpieces have misrepresented what Trump said in order to score political points -- against Trump.

But that anti-Trump misrepresentation is presented to an anti-Trump audience, by an anti-Trump mouthpiece, in order to highlight why Trump's advice shouldn't be followed. So it's likely not these viewers who are following this "advice".

Of course, if you have an example of a talking head or media mouthpiece suggesting that Trump advocates drinking bleach, and that media personality presents it as a serious course of action to be followed in a non-mocking manner, I'll stand corrected.

edited to add:
I'm in full agreement that media misrepresentation and spin in order to score political points is harmful, and erodes trust, for which we all pay a price. But...that doesn't absolve politicians of their responsibility to the truth - their words matter.
 
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Brad Sallows

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But that anti-Trump misrepresentation is presented to an anti-Trump audience

Not everyone inhabits an information silo. There is no container. Harmful information escapes. Trump irresponsibly speculated (frivolously and confusingly) about therapies. Even more irresponsibly, others twisted that and propagated harmful misinformation as if it were advice from Trump. The myth is widespread, so plainly it was spread somehow.

Suppose that the people are correct who believe there is much distrust towards media and authority. Certainly polling shows distrust, if not disrespect or even profound disdain.

So a couple of questions to ponder, and perhaps lie to oneself about.
1. Why is that?
2. Is it harmful?

My answers:
1. Media and authorities can rarely tell a story straight if it would damage or even merely fail to support their politics.
2. Yes.

It isn't really possible for people with pulpits to lie when it suits them, and then expect to be heeded when its necessary. Maybe that should be a credo on the wall of every senior bureaucrat: "I must not lie today, for I may have to offer guidance tomorrow."
 

Mick

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Not everyone inhabits an information silo. There is no container. Harmful information escapes. Trump irresponsibly speculated (frivolously and confusingly) about therapies. Even more irresponsibly, others twisted that and propagated harmful misinformation as if it were advice from Trump. The myth is widespread, so plainly it was spread somehow.
Agree. Although I wouldn't minimize Trump's speculation as simply "frivolous and confusing". Irresponsible statements by leaders have the same potential as media misrepresentation to undermine the public's trust, as well as the politician's own credibility.


Suppose that the people are correct who believe there is much distrust towards media and authority. Certainly polling shows distrust, if not disrespect or even profound disdain.
Fully agree. Media must do better, and so do politicians. Ideally, the media would hold the politicians accountable (one can dream). To simply parrot a politician's false claims without qualification or verification can be equally as harmful as misrepresentation

Note: that's not what I'm claiming is happening here - I have acknowledged that Trump was misrepresented for political gain in this instance.


So a couple of questions to ponder, and perhaps lie to oneself about.
1. Why is that?
2. Is it harmful?

My answers:
1. Media and authorities can rarely tell a story straight if it would damage or even merely fail to support their politics.
2. Yes.

It isn't really possible for people with pulpits to lie when it suits them, and then expect to be heeded when its necessary. Maybe that should be a credo on the wall of every senior bureaucrat: "I must not lie today, for I may have to offer guidance tomorrow."
100% agree with this entire statement.

Perhaps a complimentary credo for politicians:
"I must not lie today, for my claims of unfair media treatment will be largely viewed as such tomorrow."
 
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