Close Combat Vehicle: Canada to buy another AFV (& keeping LAV III & TLAV)

[-dikweed-]

Lock if already posted

Canada may become the first export customer for Germany's brand-new Puma tracked infantry fighting vehicle (IFV) -- at least that is what the Puma's manufacturers believe.

"We are seeing high-level interest within the Canadian Department of National Defence (DND) in a possible future acquisition of Puma," says a senior executive in Rheinmetall Defence.

Together with Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW), Rheinmetall has developed the Puma and is currently ramping up series production of 405 Pumas, worth around 3 billion euros ($4.5 billion) for the German armed forces.

"Canada almost went to an all-wheeled armored vehicle force. But operational experience in Afghanistan has shown that tracked combat vehicles are indispensable," says Duncan Hills, director government relations and industrial benefits for Rheinmetall Canada.

According to Hills, wheeled vehicles such as Canada's LAV III (an 8x8 armored wheeled vehicle) have experienced mobility problems in Afghanistan, particularly when having to deal with difficult off-road terrain or when having to negotiate irrigation ditches.

Protection has also proven to be an issue, with several roadside bomb attacks against LAVs resulting in high casualties.

The Puma, with its shaped hull and modular add-on armor, would provide enhanced protection for its up to nine occupants, Hills says.

The Puma is just one of several land systems products that Rheinmetall is promoting in Canada. Others are the PzH 2000 self-propelled 155-mm./52-cal. howitzer, the Gefas modular protected wheeled vehicle, the Buffalo and Kodiak armored engineer vehicles, and the C-RAM army air defense system.

Canada already has leased 20 KMW-built Leopard 2A6M main battle tanks from the German government for deployment to Afghanistan, and is taking over 100 surplus Leopard 2s from the Netherlands.

However, this last project is suffering from delays associated with the installation of Canadian army radios into the former Dutch tanks, sources close to the program tell Ares.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3addf8eb2f-200a-4a65-beb4-d5407e4dc40d

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(Edited by Moderator to correct typo in thread title.)

 

[Mike Baker]

The Puma, with its shaped hull and modular add-on armor, would provide enhanced protection for its up to nine occupants, Hills says.

Well, if that is indeed true, I can see why the Gov are looking into these vehicles.

 

[ArmyRick]

Did anybody on our end of the ocean hint a such a purchase?

 

[geo]

Beauty!

 

[Mike Baker]

Did anybody on our end of the ocean hint a such a purchase?

Not in the article, only what the manufacturers of the PUMA are saying:

Canada may become the first export customer for Germany's brand-new Puma tracked infantry fighting vehicle (IFV) -- at least that is what the Puma's manufacturers believe.

"We are seeing high-level interest within the Canadian Department of National Defence (DND) in a possible future acquisition of Puma," says a senior executive in Rheinmetall Defence

But dang, they sure do look hot

 

[-dikweed-]

Did anybody on our end of the ocean hint a such a purchase?

There is always rumors that the LAV III isnt performing well (pretty bogus rumors in my opinion).

But how are they going to justify to the public? "Oh yeah, sorry we spent billions building a fleet of wheeled LAVS, but they can't move well enough on anything else than a level road- probably should have picked up on that during the prototype stage huh?"

 

[dapaterson]

Even if we were to buy them, think about timelines for acquisition.  The Urgent Operational Requirement for C-130Js will take almost 5 years from "We need it " to "First plane in Trenton".

And, unlike the Leo 2s, we wouldn't be buying refurbished equipment off the lot - we'd be awaiting the production line to produce our vehicles, in competition with anyone else buying the same kit.

I suspect that if we do buy the Puma, the private entring St Jean today may someday be a crew commander on the first one we receive... if he or she sees them at all.

 

[-dikweed-]

Even if we were to buy them, think about timelines for acquisition.  The Urgent Operational Requirement for C-130Js will take almost 5 years from "We need it " to "First plane in Trenton".

And, unlike the Leo 2s, we wouldn't be buying refurbished equipment off the lot - we'd be awaiting the production line to produce our vehicles, in competition with anyone else buying the same kit.

I suspect that if we do buy the Puma, the private entring St Jean today may someday be a crew commander on the first one we receive... if he or she sees them at all.

Also, as I understand it...the PUMA is INCREDIBLY expensive, and the fact that there is only confirmed orders for 400 vehicles is not going to drive down the economies of scale
However, its possible to turn that beast into a 43 ton armored mini-behemoth- the protection level compared to the LAV III would be stupendous

 

[KevinB]

And then they build a bigger bomb...

  I've seen blown out M1A2 TUSK's getting worked on here -- if its built by humans it can be twice as easily be destroyed by humans.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

I wouldn't necessarily put this one in the bag for KMW/Rheinmetall, as BAE Systems will likely be very competitive with CV90.

 

[retiredgrunt45]

The PUMA looks surprisingly similar to the German Marder 1. Very nice vehicle!!! I really hope we go back to a tracked AFV. The LAV's are very good, but there's nothing quite like a tracked vehicle when you need to go into those spots were only tracks dare tread.

 

[GAP]

Is there not a tracked version of the LAVIII that solves that problem?

 

[geo]

Nope,

 

[COBRA-6]

IMHO IF Canada purchases a tracked IFV I think it would be a limited buy (probably in numbers equal to the tank purchase) to suppliment the LAV-III and compliment the LEO-2, not to replace the LAV-III entirely.

 

[Haletown]

The secret government file is called "Bearhead II" and the deal involves a manufacturing facility in rural Cape Breton.


Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[Infanteer]

IMHO IF Canada purchases a tracked IFV I think it would be a limited buy (probably in numbers equal to the tank purchase) to suppliment the LAV-III and compliment the LEO-2, not to replace the LAV-III entirely.

As much as I love multiple fleets of a few vehicles - I suspect you're on track here (no pun intended).  I would hope a small Canadian buy of either a Puma or a CV90 would feature a 25mm Bushmaster as opposed to a 30 to ensure commonality of ammo.

The LAVIII, the Leopard, and any tracked carrier are all about to swept up in the next iteration of the FCS (I can't recall what it's name is this time) - an all singing, all dancing chassis for the Army.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Wonder if LFTEU will be doing user trials on them  ??? If so I want in on it.  ;D

 

[OldSolduer]

Nice pictures. IF this comes to fruition, I'd love to be on the trials as well. Good looking machine.

 

[a_majoor]

As much as I love multiple fleets of a few vehicles - I suspect you're on track here (no pun intended).  I would hope a small Canadian buy of either a Puma or a CV90 would feature a 25mm Bushmaster as opposed to a 30 to ensure commonality of ammo.

The LAVIII, the Leopard, and any tracked carrier are all about to swept up in the next iteration of the FCS (I can't recall what it's name is this time) - an all singing, all dancing chassis for the Army.

Current name: Future Family of Combat Vehicles (FFCV). Throw on the music please........................

 

[George Wallace]

The secret government file is called "Bearhead II" and the deal involves a manufacturing facility in rural Cape Breton.


Sorry, couldn't resist.

Seeing as that nearly happened back in the 70's.