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Commissioning - Masters without Bachelors

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Can anyone advise if it's possible for an NCM to be Commissioned if the member has a Master's Degree but does not have a Bachelor's?

UTPNCM and CEOTP reference baccalaureate degrees specifically, however, I don't know how higher degrees fit into the plans in the absence of a bachelor's.

Thanks in advance
 

dimsum

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I'm curious - what program offers a Masters without Bachelors being one of the prerequisites?
 

ballz

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Dimsum said:
I'm curious - what program offers a Masters without Bachelors being one of the prerequisites?

Lots of MBA programs have special application processes for experienced people. Given you didn't always need a Bachelor's degree to get a job and progress, there are still folks kicking around who began working out of high school and worked their way into senior management / executive positions. So there are usually special application processes for these people to be considered for an MBA program. Those people will be fewer and fewer in the future, and universities are less and less likely to take these kind of candidates... to the detriment of everyone of course, but that's credentialism for you.

EDIT: An example of what I'm saying, Queen's MBA program...
https://smith.queensu.ca/mba_programs/emba_nat/about_the_program/faq.php

"6.What if I didn't complete my undergraduate degree?

The Executive MBA Admissions Committee recognizes that individual applicants have unique strengths. These strengths are given special consideration during the admission process regardless of the applicant having a formal educational background. For example, applicants with extraordinary work and leadership experience may be considered for the program without having any academic credentials."
 

Blackadder1916

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Neso said:
Can anyone advise if it's possible for an NCM to be Commissioned if the member has a Master's Degree but does not have a Bachelor's?

UTPNCM and CEOTP reference baccalaureate degrees specifically, however, I don't know how higher degrees fit into the plans in the absence of a bachelor's.

Thanks in advance

You're off track in referencing UTPNCM and CEOTP for the requirement of a baccalaureate degree.  Both of those commissioning programs are for individuals who have not completed the academic requirement for commissioning (i.e. undergraduate degree) and will (if selected) complete it on government time and expense (UTPNCM) or on their own time and partial expense (CEOTP).  For someone who already has the requisite undergraduate degree (or feels that they have an equivalent qualification, like a graduate degree) then it is the Special Commissioning Plan (see DAOD 5002-11) that applies.  That DAOD states:

Academic Requirements

3.5 An applicant is required to possess an acceptable academic degree identified as the entry level requirement for the targeted officer military occupation, as stipulated in the entry standards for the officer military occupation. The academic degree must be from a Canadian university, college or other educational institution that has degree-granting authority accredited by a provincial or territorial ministry or a federal government department, or be a recognized degree from a foreign university or educational institution that has been evaluated as the equivalent of a Canadian degree. The applicant must provide any documentation necessary to establish their level of education in terms of the Canadian educational system.
 

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Blackadder1916 said:
You're off track in referencing UTPNCM and CEOTP for the requirement of a baccalaureate degree. 

Both the UTP-NCM and CEOTP require the member to complete a Bachelor's/Baccalaureate Degree.

DAOD 5002-9, UTP-NCM:
2.1 The CAF recognizes that some NCMs possess the personal qualities and the potential to serve as officers and provides them with the opportunity to apply to undertake the military training and full-time subsidized studies required to attain a baccalaureate degree and to develop and progress in an officer military occupation.

DAOD 5002-6, CEOTP:
2.3 A suitable applicant or CAF member who lacks a baccalaureate degree may become an officer under the Continuing Education Officer Training Plan (CEOTP) provided that they attain a baccalaureate degree prior to the completion of their variable initial engagement (VIE) or current terms of service.
 

garb811

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Royal Roads is also very popular for their flexible admission policy Masters programs with serving and ex-members...
 

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EMBAs are really more like certificate programs in the strict sense that they don’t typically satisfy the hours requirements for a Masters. The use of the term “Masters” in the title is a legacy of how they originally developed as crash course “MBA essentials” programs for people who had risen to executive ranks in their jobs but couldn’t take two years off to do an MBA. So my sense is that with an EMBA you would not be deemed to have satisfied an undergraduate degree requirement.

But Blackadder’s question is valid: UTPNCM and CEOTP are programs you enter to “get” an undergraduate degree; you don’t need one to be admitted to those programs. Do you have an EMBA and are worried you wouldn’t be accepted because of that?
 

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Monsoon said:
But Blackadder’s question is valid: UTPNCM and CEOTP are programs you enter to “get” an undergraduate degree; you don’t need one to be admitted to those programs. Do you have an EMBA and are worried you wouldn’t be accepted because of that?

MSc Computer Science, admitted on prior experience and training. However, depending on how hard the Baccalaureate requirement is UTP-NCM or CEOTP may still be on the table. This is what I'm trying to ascertain. Is the Baccalaureate a hard requirement or is a Master's generally considered to meet GSO requirements?
 

Cloud Cover

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As always, ask a recruiter for the best answer. I suspect they will request your PLAR or whatever was granted to gain your admission into the MSc program. Based on that, they may  suggest the Special Commissioning Plan noted by BlackAdder. One way or another you will have to establish your qualifications are equal to one of these 2 degree standards:

This link sets out the Ontario Qualifications Framework for a Bachelors degree: http://www.tcu.gov.on.ca/pepg/programs/oqf/certificate10.html

This link is the OQF for Honours Baccalaureate Degree: http://www.tcu.gov.on.ca/pepg/programs/oqf/certificate11.html

For you to have gained admission into a masters degree program with the credential that you have (MSc.) the institution that granted you that degree must have had some process to assess equivalency to a BSc. If your MSc. is from a foreign institution, you could have a problem because foreign institutions cannot grant equivalency to an Ontario Baccalaureate degree without ministerial permission.
 

daftandbarmy

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Neso said:
MSc Computer Science, admitted on prior experience and training.

OK, so that's about a million times harder than a BA in anything, and a BSc in a bunch of things, and a degree that we'll need alot more people to take so we can stay ahead of the technology change curve.

Just sayin'...
 

ballz

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daftandbarmy said:
OK, so that's about a million times harder than a BA in anything, and a BSc in a bunch of things, and a degree that we'll need alot more people to take so we can stay ahead of the technology change curve.

Just sayin'...

Agreed. Soooo BLUF is there is no chance the CAF is capable of flexible thought and he will therefore be told to go do a Bachelors....
 

Lumber

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ballz said:
Agreed. Soooo BLUF is there is no chance the CAF is capable of flexible thought and he will therefore be told to go do a Bachelors....

One of my subordinates wanted to switch from Clerk to Padre through the MPTP (mil padre trg plan?). He did not have a BA.

The requirement to be a Padre is to have a Masters of Divinity. If accepted to the MPTP program, the military will pay for your to attend divinity school and get that  master's degree.

He contacted the divinity school, and even though he didn't have a  BA, the school was willing to take him on. Therefore, he could obtain a Masters Degree (in Divinity) without actually having a BA.

However! In order to apply for the MPTP program, it says you have to have a BA. The job of Padre doesn't require you have a BA; the BA that you need could be in literally any topic, but the documents say that it is an entry requirement.

So, even though the actual requirement for the job is a Master's Degree, and even those the school was willing to admit him into their Master's program, he could not apply for the MPTP program, because the MPTP programs says you need to have a BA in order to apply.


:facepalm:
 

Navy_Pete

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Lumber said:
One of my subordinates wanted to switch from Clerk to Padre through the MPTP (mil padre trg plan?). He did not have a BA.

The requirement to be a Padre is to have a Masters of Divinity. If accepted to the MPTP program, the military will pay for your to attend divinity school and get that  master's degree.

He contacted the divinity school, and even though he didn't have a  BA, the school was willing to take him on. Therefore, he could obtain a Masters Degree (in Divinity) without actually having a BA.

However! In order to apply for the MPTP program, it says you have to have a BA. The job of Padre doesn't require you have a BA; the BA that you need could be in literally any topic, but the documents say that it is an entry requirement.

So, even though the actual requirement for the job is a Master's Degree, and even those the school was willing to admit him into their Master's program, he could not apply for the MPTP program, because the MPTP programs says you need to have a BA in order to apply.


:facepalm:

That sounds about par for the course.  One of those situations where having the CO throw their weight around to have common sense prevail would be worthwhile, as well as getting the god squad to weigh in.

Similarly, it's like some of the requirements for DND engineering positions require a B.Eng, but you can be a military position doing the same job without necessarily having a B.Eng, and also be a registered P.Eng (by demonstrating equivalent experience and jumping through some hoops).  So experienced candidates that have actually done the job aren't able to apply, but someone fresh out of university can.  Any good policy needs to leave a bit of room for exceptions with the right level of review/approval, as nothing is ever black and white and covers all the possible COAs.
 

daftandbarmy

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Lumber said:
One of my subordinates wanted to switch from Clerk to Padre through the MPTP (mil padre trg plan?). He did not have a BA.

The requirement to be a Padre is to have a Masters of Divinity. If accepted to the MPTP program, the military will pay for your to attend divinity school and get that  master's degree.

He contacted the divinity school, and even though he didn't have a  BA, the school was willing to take him on. Therefore, he could obtain a Masters Degree (in Divinity) without actually having a BA.

However! In order to apply for the MPTP program, it says you have to have a BA. The job of Padre doesn't require you have a BA; the BA that you need could be in literally any topic, but the documents say that it is an entry requirement.

So, even though the actual requirement for the job is a Master's Degree, and even those the school was willing to admit him into their Master's program, he could not apply for the MPTP program, because the MPTP programs says you need to have a BA in order to apply.


:facepalm:

And this, kids, is what they mean when they say there's the RIGHT way, the WRONG way and the ARMY way.
 

ModlrMike

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Neso said:
Can anyone advise if it's possible for an NCM to be Commissioned if the member has a Master's Degree but does not have a Bachelor's?

UTPNCM and CEOTP reference baccalaureate degrees specifically, however, I don't know how higher degrees fit into the plans in the absence of a bachelor's.

Thanks in advance

The answer to your first question is yes. As reference, I have a Masters with no baccalaureate degree.

To answer your second question, the applicable programmes would be SCP and CFR. UTPNCM and CEOTP don't apply in your situation.

My advice: make an appointment with the PSO, and ensure your education does not require anything further. Specifically, have them advise you on the educational requirements for the occupation(s) you're interested in. Then have a sit down with your chain of command and let it be known that you have higher education, and that you desire commissioning.
 

jitterbug

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When you are in the application process for commissioning, the PSO will apply for an academic waiver which you will more than likely be granted so long as the Masters is a similar program to the required Bachelors.  Like for instance if you needed a Bachelors of Business Admin than an MBA will more than suffice.
 

ModlrMike

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For clarity sake, SCP is an application driven programme, CFR is not.
 

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Lumber said:
One of my subordinates wanted to switch from Clerk to Padre through the MPTP (mil padre trg plan?). He did not have a BA.

The requirement to be a Padre is to have a Masters of Divinity. If accepted to the MPTP program, the military will pay for your to attend divinity school and get that  master's degree.

He contacted the divinity school, and even though he didn't have a  BA, the school was willing to take him on. Therefore, he could obtain a Masters Degree (in Divinity) without actually having a BA.

However! In order to apply for the MPTP program, it says you have to have a BA. The job of Padre doesn't require you have a BA; the BA that you need could be in literally any topic, but the documents say that it is an entry requirement.

So, even though the actual requirement for the job is a Master's Degree, and even those the school was willing to admit him into their Master's program, he could not apply for the MPTP program, because the MPTP programs says you need to have a BA in order to apply.


:facepalm:

So as a matter of fact, when you look into the minimum requirements for the Chaplain occupation, a BA is required as well as the MDiv. The 3-4 other occupations that require you to have a Masters Degree ie PSO or Physio do NOT require you to have a BA only the applicable Master's Degree. It's FUBAR but that's how the requirements are written.
 

daftandbarmy

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edlabonte said:
So as a matter of fact, when you look into the minimum requirements for the Chaplain occupation, a BA is required as well as the MDiv. The 3-4 other occupations that require you to have a Masters Degree ie PSO or Physio do NOT require you to have a BA only the applicable Master's Degree. It's FUBAR but that's how the requirements are written.

So what you're saying is.... the policies are not only dumb, they're inconsistently dumb?

 

Blackadder1916

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Lumber said:
. . . Clerk to Padre through the MPTP (mil padre trg plan?).  . . .

The program is Subsidized Education Entry Level Masters (SEELM).  At present it applies to three occupations - Chaplains, Social Workers and Physiotherapists. 

edlabonte said:
So as a matter of fact, when you look into the minimum requirements for the Chaplain occupation, a BA is required as well as the MDiv. The 3-4 other occupations that require you to have a Masters Degree ie PSO or Physio do NOT require you to have a BA only the applicable Master's Degree. It's FUBAR but that's how the requirements are written.

Actually the way the requirements are written make sense if you are aware of some of the idiosyncrasies of Canadian university programs.  The usual admission prerequisite for a masters programme is a baccalaureate degree.  While some institutions may accept individuals who do not do not have that credential, it is not the norm, so it makes sense that it is listed as a CF check the box requirement to apply for that subsidized education plan.  Especially since these individuals are commissioned and paid as subalterns while attending school.  However, for the one SEELM occupation - Physio - that does not list having a bachelors degree as a requirement for acceptance to SEELM, there is probably a reason (or at least in my reasoning).  Of the 15 physiotherapy programmes in Canada, two of them (both in Quebec) do not have a admissions prerequisite of an undergraduate degree (or even an equivalent) since their programmes are "Continuum baccalauréat-maîtrise en physiothérapie" (in other words combined Bachelors/Masters).  It's that CEGEP thing.  I'm not sure at what point an individual who is attending one of those schools would be commissioned.
 
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