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CSOR manpower needs part 2

Should CSOR follow example of SFSG

  • Vote yes

    Votes: 4 50.0%
  • Vote no

    Votes: 4 50.0%

  • Total voters
    8

cameron

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This my follow up to part 1 of the above topic.  I know that my suggestion will be a controversial one because it will mean that the only maroon berets left in the army will be the Airborne Coy of the Queen's Own Rifles of Canada (a reserve regiment).  I am also aware that this would seem to contradict a previous post of a few months back, in which I argued that the army could field both maroon and the tan beret units.  Bear in mind however, that I made the point in said post that the Canadian Army can field both a conventional airborne battalion and a similarly sized commando regiment once it increased its manpower to the desired levels.

I know there are many traditionalists who revere the maroon beret, I myself love its mystique.  The loss of conventional airborne units in the regular army that my suggestion would bring about need only be temporary.  Once the army reaches close to the numbers that the Conservatives say they want to bring it to (assuming they keep their campaign pledge, lets keep our fingers crossed), then the maroon beret can be reinstated, either in the current form of independent Para Coys or the proposed Airborne Btn.

We urgently need to take stock and consider the present situation.  The terrorist threat, both in A'stan and worldwide is growing at an alarming rate.  Canada's special forces need to beef up in as short a time as possible to meet a threat that for the foreseeable future is going to get worse before it gets better, and they need to do this without compromising on quality.  That is why I suggest that the Para Coys be absorbed into the CSOR (at the same time candidates from all branches of the CF should still be welcomed),  as much as I am a buff of military history, a rising threat coupled with a badly undermanned army, makes increasing special forces capability at present a greater priority than nostalgia for the maroon beret.

Again forgive the impertinence of this ignorant civilian.  I hope those with much more experience of such matters will reply to this post, whatever their opinions are.

Regards :cdn: :salute:
 

Armymedic

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Link to other topic:

MOD NOTE: See post below.

I say no because our level of training to become a member of a para coy is somewhat less demanding then the British Para Regt. I am also sure (but can not provide substantiation) they weed out those who would not make the grade before being rerolled.
 

Franko

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MOD NOTE:

Unit size and composition will not be discussed. Nor will any "rumours" of where it is going.

 

Ralph

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They attempted to voluntell one of the para coys to join CSOR and the boys wouldn't have it. And it wasn't through changing the colour of their hat, I'm guessing. Unless it's WWIII, forcing units en masse to rebadge makes you look like the only guy at the dance without a partner...desperate and sweaty...
 

GO!!!

Fallen Comrade
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The nature of a unit such as the CSOR makes it imperative that the soldiers who go there be volunteers.

The fact that the CSOR is being based in Petawawa makes this unit significantly less attractive to a great number of men, including those in the para coys, who are understandably unwilling to leave a good posting like edmonton for one like Pet.

Units populated with unwilling soldiers are not going to be effective, and will be plagued with manning problems, not the least of which is attrition.

There is no reason that the Para Coys could not be trained to the level of a Tier II SF unit, given the resources, men and mandate that the CSOR has been given.
 

cameron

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Thanks to all for your input.  A question for Armymedic (or anyone else who can answer), you mentioned that the training for one of the Cdn Para Coys is somewhat less demanding than the Brit Para Regt.  How great is the qualitative difference and in what specific areas is this difference found. :salute:
 

cameron

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Postscript to the question I just posted, i'd also be interested to know how our airborne training stacks up to that of other countries, such as the US 82nd and 101st airborne, the Aussies etc. :cdn: :salute:
 

Armymedic

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GO!!! said:
The fact that the CSOR is being based in Petawawa makes this unit significantly less attractive to a great number of men, including those in the para coys, who are understandably unwilling to leave a good posting like Edmonton for one like Pet.

It is a pity that they can not dedicate themselves to something beyond a paycheck. What happened to soldiers who wish to be challenged, wish to be amongst "the elite"?

And on what grounds do you say that Edmonton is a better posting then Petawawa? The only reasons I can understand is for specific spousal employment or for family/child health issues... But that is an area for a discussion in the "Home Front".

cameron said:
Thanks to all for your input.  A question for Armymedic (or anyone else who can answer), you mentioned that the training for one of the Cdn Para Coys is somewhat less demanding than the Brit Para Regt.  How great is the qualitative difference and in what specific areas is this difference found. :salute:

In Canada currently, the only "special" training one needs beyond their regular MOC training is a basic para course. There are a few DZ drills, but they are learned OJT, and are not overly difficult.

As for comparison to other countries: To be accepted into the Brit Para Regt, applicants must complete an entrance course similar to the CAR's Airborne indoctrination course (at least they used to, my info is about 5 yrs out of date). The 82nd Airborne do not have a selection course but do maintain higher readiness and fitness standards (edit to add) than the remainder of the US Army.



 

paracowboy

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Armymedic said:
It is a pity that they can not dedicate themselves to something beyond a paycheck. What happened to soldiers who wish to be challenged, wish to be amongst "the elite"?
the attitude was trained out of them in the past few years by ever-weakening Standards during Basic and "Battle" School now. We don't go into the weeds for more than a couple weeks at a time now, due to budgetary reasons. They don't have to do Hard Stuff anymore, and therefore, don't get to discover the joys of over-coming challenges. It's unfair to all involved, and to the nation we serve.

And on what grounds do you say that Edmonton is a better posting then Petawawa? The only reasons I can understand is for specific spousal employment or for family/child health issues... But that is an area for a discussion in the "Home Front".
Job opportunities, attitude of the civilian populace, better medical services, more/better off-hour activities, women who weigh less than 200 lbs...The list is nearly endless.

As for comparison to other countries: To be accepted into the Brit Para Regt, applicants must complete an entrance course similar to the CAR's Airborne indoctrination course (at least they used to, my info is about 5 yrs out of date).
P-Coy Selection is still being run. As a side-bar, when I first got to the LIB, we were all run through an unofficial 'AIC' to bring us up to what our NCOs considered Standard, and that continued for a couple of years. We did it again in 200/2001 in the Para Coy at that time.

The 82nd Airborne do not have a selection course but do maintain higher readiness and fitness standards.
that's debatable. The fitness aspect, not the higher readiness. I've worked with them, and their PT is similar to ours. We're better runners, they're better at calisthenics, generally speaking.
 

GO!!!

Fallen Comrade
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Armymedic said:
It is a pity that they can not dedicate themselves to something beyond a paycheck. What happened to soldiers who wish to be challenged, wish to be amongst "the elite"?
The same thing that happened to you, apparently. Where is your desire to be challenged, and leave the comfort of a UMS - or is that something that is only for the infanteers in jump positions? - are we supposed to carry the mantle of "eliteness" so that the attached medics don't have to?

Allegations of "pity" ring especially hollow from the likes of you, who has collected a paycheque for the last two decades in a purple trade renowned for it's lack of field training.

And on what grounds do you say that Edmonton is a better posting then Petawawa? The only reasons I can understand is for specific spousal employment or for family/child health issues... But that is an area for a discussion in the "Home Front".
For all the reasons Paracowboy said and more. You could also throw in cost of living, public support, english as the only language required for daily use, lower taxes, the opportunity for city dwelling, etc.

In Canada currently, the only "special" training one needs beyond their regular MOC training is a basic para course. There are a few DZ drills, but they are learned OJT, and are not overly difficult.
Perhaps, but by the military's own admission, CF parachuting is still in a "skill maintenance" phase, as opposed to an all out airborne capability. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the CDS.

As for comparison to other countries: To be accepted into the Brit Para Regt, applicants must complete an entrance course similar to the CAR's Airborne indoctrination course (at least they used to, my info is about 5 yrs out of date). The 82nd Airborne do not have a selection course but do maintain higher readiness and fitness standards.

Bull$hit.

Where do you get this crap from? Have you worked with any sub-units of the 82nd recently? Their readiness levels are rotated, in a manner similar to ours. They also concentrate PT on upperbody and calisthenics, whereas we love to run.

I'm not sure where you are getting your info from, but much of it is outdated, wrong or tainted by your apparent wish to denigrate certain parts of our military.

Perhaps if you were more inclined to put your money where your mouth is, you would have been on the course starting April 18 - unless of course you are only in it for a paycheque... ^-^



 

paracowboy

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GO!!! said:
The same thing that happened to you, apparently. Where is your desire to be challenged, and leave the comfort of a UMS - or is that something that is only for the infanteers in jump positions? - are we supposed to carry the mantle of "eliteness" so that the attached medics don't have to?

Allegations of "pity" ring especially hollow from the likes of you, who has collected a paycheque for the last two decades in a purple trade renowned for it's lack of field training.
  knock this crap off. The man you are speaking to has been doing the job longer than you. He has served as a medic to Para Coys, and is in Pet doing the same for the units he now supports. Attacking other trades is not tolerated, and you know it.

Go back and re-read that post. How often on this board have you bemoaned the weakening of our Army? And he does the same, so you launch on him?
 

Armymedic

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GO!!!,
This particular statement:
It is a pity that they can not dedicate themselves to something beyond a paycheck. What happened to soldiers who wish to be challenged, wish to be amongst "the elite"?

Is for all fit and capable members of the Army, regardless of trade, who chose not to volunteer because they did not wish to leave their comfortable homes in Edmonton, Valcartier, and Gagetown alike. There were far more excellent soldiers here in Petawawa who were denied the opportunity to apply to CSOR because of the upcoming tour then were accepted for the initial course. I am sure that the initial course could have been filled by Petawawa soldiers alone. But that is not what the CF wants, nor what CANSOFCOM needs, as great soldiers work on all the army bases, not just Petawawa. Nor is Petawawa immune to having soldiers who only put on a uniform to collect a paycheck. As there are great soldiers everywhere, there too is junk.

As for your more personal attack...My info is, as I stated, 5 yrs out of date. I earned my US wings in Bragg with a group from the 82nd in 99. I also jumped into Camp Legune with engineers elements of XVIII Corps, and then worked on a 2 week filed problem attached to an infantry coy from 2/187 Regt from the 101st in June of 2000. 
I ack it is only one of three brigades of the division who maintain high readiness, periodically rotated.

GO!!! said:
The same thing that happened to you, apparently. Where is your desire to be challenged, and leave the comfort of a UMS - or is that something that is only for the infanteers in jump positions? - are we supposed to carry the mantle of "eliteness" so that the attached medics don't have to?

Perhaps if you were more inclined to put your money where your mouth is, you would have been on the course starting April 18 - unless of course you are only in it for a paycheque... ^-^

Would joining Mike Coy 3 RCR for full equipment exercise jumps be far enough away from my warm cozy UMS to count in your books?
I am exactly where I need to be.
 

Recce41

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Fellas
I know Medic very well, although he wimped out and left the Corp. HAHA Ash. I agree with ParaCowboy, to attack anothers trade is not called for. I know many of Inf types that have not seen the field since QL3.
Many from 2 RCR turned down their selection. I had one MCpl that was selected, but turned it down for JTF. Why, all he got was greef. We trained together and the only time he didn't was after the PT test. People will knock people, because they don't have the balls to try.
 
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