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Disobeying an unlawful/unethical order - Mandatory Vaccinations

mariomike

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By the way, many people here are well informed and not "sheep" who blindly follow the crowd.

What is happening in workplaces now reminds of something someone said to us a long time ago,

"We cannot change your beliefs. But, we can change your employment."

I didn't go to medical school, so I follow the direction of our local Medical Officer of Health. I guess that makes me a "sheeple". :)
 

lenaitch

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I remember standing in a long line of other kids.
I recently asked my mother about the "decision" part. She said nobody asked her opinion.

What does your union say?

My former union is on board with unpaid suspension effective 1 Nov. and termination effective 13 Dec..

Who wants to be cooped up in a station, or vehicle, 40 hours a week with an unvaccinated partner?

We went through the same thing when annual influenza vaccination was mandated.

The union would send a rep to hold your hand while they terminatated you. But, that was it.

There was rumour of a mass resignation, and rescind. But, that never happened.

I parted ideological ways with my association (and was a local branch president) when it started championing causes instead of just representing the members. They say that they respect management's right to manage, but don't really mean it when it expects to be consulted and have its position reflected on every act of management. Respect the process so that both sides act within the law and collective agreement.
 

kev994

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There still needs to be a sound legal basis for anything like that- members have the right to procedural fairness, even in the army. Fast path to a succesful grievance and/or judicial review if proper administrative law principles are not adhered to. If you’re going to stop someone’s pay, better have a written policy stemming from some legal authority to do so.
QR&O 208.31:
(1) Except as prescribed in paragraph (3) of this article, when no military service is rendered by an officer or non-commissioned member during any period and no forfeiture has been imposed in respect of that period, an officer commanding a command or formation may direct that a forfeiture be imposed for the whole or any part of that period.

So if you don’t come to work the CAF doesn’t need to pay you. I propose that if you can’t come to work due to reasons within your control this paragraph still applies.
 

brihard

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Sure, that can potentially cover part of it. There will need to be a legal mechanism to order CAF members not to work- to effectively suspend them from duty.

I’m by no means saying these facts are show stoppers. I’m simply saying administrative law requires due process and procedural fairness. There will need to be a legal basis for any such actions that can stand up to court challenge.
 

McG

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Under what QR&O or CBI can someone be placed against thier will on LWOP?
QR&O can be published under the authority of the Governor in Council (G), Treasury Board (T), the MND (M), or the CDS (C). There is no ambiguity that the direction, to get vaccinated or go on LWOP, is coming from PM with full cabinet backing. If the barracks room lawyers believe a specific QR&O is needed, that should be achievable since the order is coming from the body that can issue the highest of QR&O.
 

PuckChaser

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Literally everything we do is backed up by a written down policy. The QR&Os are our collective bargaining agreement. It provides that legal backing to conduct administration in the CAF. If the PM is issuing this direction, the CDS should be asking for an OIC QR&O change to support it. By not pushing that QR&O, the PM abdicating any responsibility to the CDS so if it goes south he can proclaim "that's not what I meant".
 

Eye In The Sky

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so think the numbers lost to anti-vaxxers is much lower than potential losses from people rendered non-employable from COVID.

A few days late with this reply; when we did our shots back in May/June, it was reported by the Wing CofC that about 96.4% of members had received both shots. Like many bases/wings/stations, all had to 'attend' the parade but the choice to get the shot was left to the mbr. 96% is a solid number, IMO. The remaining, some will go without fanfare if ordered now that their co-workers haven't turned into trolls and "walkers". Some will hold out and risk their continued service, pension etc if/when the "shall be vaccinated" order comes out (I'm on leave the past several weeks so I am not tracking from within Sqn lines....).
 

Eye In The Sky

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By brutal lockdown, I mean, you can't visit anyone outside your household for 2 months at a time, can't leave your local area without an essential reason during those two months. Much of the same things we have seen just throttled up a bit more until we get a higher vaccination rate.

Your describing the 3rd wave in NS last spring, and while it was restrictive, it wasn't brutal at all. Nova Scotians were restricted to essential travel within their own counties. It was during opening of rec fishing season; some folks said "screw this" and got nailed with fines.

I have a friend who just returned this APS from an OUTCAN in Sicily; they were not allowed to leave their property for a significant time. We're going "better than ok" here in Canada IMO....
 

Eye In The Sky

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It’s not just the vax mandates. It’s censorship, bought out media, firearms confiscation, cancel culture etc etc. How the vax mandates are being handled is just a part of the long march. Look at the messaging, if someone doesn‘t believe a COVID vaccine is needed for them personally, they‘re termed with venom an “anti-vaxxer” even though they may have every other possible inoculation. Things are not looking good long term. The handling of this pandemic is a part of all that.

While I don't necessarily disagree with you on those points singularly, I don't correlate the "vax mandate" to the others; some of the others are unique to our Canadian cultures and society values; COVID is borderless and a global...is threat too strong a word?

"Handling of the pandemic" in Canada so far; the fed has, for the most part, let the provincial authorities look after their own AORs and make the necessary restrictions/regs etc. I think Canada and the provinces / territories have done very well overall.
 

brihard

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Literally everything we do is backed up by a written down policy. The QR&Os are our collective bargaining agreement. It provides that legal backing to conduct administration in the CAF. If the PM is issuing this direction, the CDS should be asking for an OIC QR&O change to support it. By not pushing that QR&O, the PM abdicating any responsibility to the CDS so if it goes south he can proclaim "that's not what I meant".
The collective agreement comparison is an invalid one, a CBA cannot be arbitrarily changed by the employer. The federal mandates for unionized employees are taking place outside of anything specifically in the collective. Broadly, it’s ‘management rights’. It has been enacted on the strength of a TBS policy that does not require an OIC regulatory instrument. I don’t see anything suggesting this is not within the existing legal authorities of the CDS- he just needs to be clear about which internal orders/policy instruments will authorize the various steps to effect the requirement and the consequences for not complying.
 

mariomike

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hattrick72

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Your describing the 3rd wave in NS last spring, and while it was restrictive, it wasn't brutal at all. Nova Scotians were restricted to essential travel within their own counties. It was during opening of rec fishing season; some folks said "screw this" and got nailed with fines.

I have a friend who just returned this APS from an OUTCAN in Sicily; they were not allowed to leave their property for a significant time. We're going "better than ok" here in Canada IMO....
Wasn't Nova Scotia on their second wave when Ontario and BC were on their third? Doesn't really matter I guess, may be easier to keep count with Canada rather than what happened locally.

How long can you be banned from seeing your family in the next community before it becomes a brutal restriction? Given your example of NS, look at Sackville/Amherst.

I'm with you on the fact that in short term none of what Canada has endured is brutal, but coming up on 24 months of fairly consistent lockdown, I would say it is turning towards brutal for the civilian population.
 

Remius

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Wasn't Nova Scotia on their second wave when Ontario and BC were on their third? Doesn't really matter I guess, may be easier to keep count with Canada rather than what happened locally.

How long can you be banned from seeing your family in the next community before it becomes a brutal restriction? Given your example of NS, look at Sackville/Amherst.

I'm with you on the fact that in short term none of what Canada has endured is brutal, but coming up on 24 months of fairly consistent lockdown, I would say it is turning towards brutal for the civilian population.
What part of the country are you in?
 

Misses muffett

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You're making an assumption. There's plenty of reasons folks don't want it. Brow beating them, taking thier pay away and dehumanizing them by labeling them anti-vaxxers seems like it's working though, right?

I guess it's just like our COVID-19 lockdown and mask measures. It hasn't stopped 3 waves but if we just do the same stuff over again but harder it'll totally work this time!
 

Misses muffett

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Good luck with that, the easiest transition for a lot of CAF members is into defence related positions that require access to DND properties. If I was hiring people I'd probably play it safe and assume that would require COVID vaccination at some point to do the job, and employers are free to have their own vaccine mandates as well regardless. I think being non-vaccinated will be career limiting fairly globally, and also prevent folks from traveling etc.

While our vacc rates in Canada is pretty high, still in single digits in a lot of countries, so going to be a few years until this global pandemic is under control globally.

I've still yet to hear a 'firmly held belief' that isn't rooted in misinformation/lies. Vaccines don't cause autism (haven't 'leveled up' yet). When you get a vaccine, you are creating a natural immunity so that your immune system can fight the real thing (it's like sending your immune system onpre-deployment training), so it is still your immune system protecting yoy. And so far, I haven't got a Wifi, 5G or other boost, so it's a bit disappointing.
There is a correlation between rates of Autism and increased vaccines. This is not causation of course...who would ever fund that type of research?
 
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