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Email to the DND on JTF2

marlene

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I sent an email off to the DND out of curiosity on JTF2. I thought I was asking very innocent questions but got a real non-reply back. I asked why the secrecy on JTF2 when SAS and Delta Force were far more forthcoming in what their units were about etc. I asked if the DND felt that the more open policy concerning SAS and Delta Force had hurt them in some way. I really thought a simple yes or no would have been forthcoming but nope.

I was certainly not looking for information that would in any way jeopardize anyone in JTF2 or so I thought. Am I really missing the point here????? Was my question not innocent?

merlane
 
Why is it any of your concern about what JTF-2 does and why they are "secret"? General information does not need to go to the public since they do not need to know to begin with. If you want any information from DND about JTF, then read the official JTF2 website.

You can go to http://www.forces.gc.ca/dcds/units/jtf2/default_e.asp for all the information you want on JTF-2.
 
Perhaps you could let us know what the specific questions you asked were, and what the "non-reply" you got back said exactly.
 
It's none of my concern. Just thought the question was an innocent one.

merlane
 
The question! as per my email to the DND. "The JTF2 is surrounded by far more secrecy than either the SAS or Delta Force. Do you feel the open policy that these units have effected have been harmful to them?"

Kind of thought it was a "yes" or "no" answer. Yes we feel the open policy those units have has been harmful. No, we don't feel the open policy those units have has been harmful.

merlane
 
As far as I know there is no "open policy" on Delta.. and up until the 90s.. (perhaps even to this day), the US Government has never officially acknowledged Delta.
 
The secrecy pertains to both OPSEC and PERSEC issues.  The nature of the job demands it.

Just remember, if you have to ask, you probably don't need to know.
 
OPSEC and PERSEC are paramount. Like the rest of us, you do not have the 'Need to Know'.......If we did, we'd know. Again I submit that Canadians, including our soldiers have this overwhelming need to know what is happening, with everyone and everything in an operational theatre, and thats just not the case. Need to know is not a right, regardless of rank, and even moreso if someone is a civvy. Soldiers die because of compromises in OPSEC and PERSEC. Not only that, their families, parents, spouses and children could be harmed for the operations they are or have been involved in.

The US military to the best of my knowledge does not acknowledge the existence of Delta.....However, that being said, when a soldier takes the Delta course, it shows up on their DD214 (Personnel File)......I've seen it on one of my buddies' DD214's.........

TM
 
Well put Hollywood, I'm assuming a DD214 is a Pers file?
 
HollywoodHitman said:
... OPSEC and PERSEC are paramount ...

On the other hand, what's really paramount is the mission - victory, in other words.
Sometimes it's useful to screw with the bad guys, and "let slip" a little info ... and/or disinformation ...

From a more simplistic approach:
What's the use of having the best CT troops in the world, if nobody knows about them?
The bad guys might think a target is an easy one, but might think twice if they know they're up against the best ...

Thus, while they'll officially deny, deny, deny ... there are some quiet info ops going on here and there.
As pointed out earlier, it's no coincidence that there's so much info aval on the street about the SAS
(i.e. they've got it right - OPSEC, PERSEC, while simultaneously attacking the bad guys with info ops).

Equally, one of the fundamentals in consequence management is the maintenance of public confidence (however, you probably haven't had that course yet) - suffice it to say, sometimes the Canadian public does indeed have a Constitutional right to know they're being protected adequately - it's absolutely wrong to think otherwise (i.e. the exact wording escapes me, but it goes something like this: "... not only must justice be done, but justice must also BE SEEN to be done ..." - in effect, stating that certain things must happen in the public eye and not solely behind closed doors).

However, as we've talked about previously behind closed doors, we can't let the bad guys know about all our newest x-ray sights, the newest lightweight chameleon stealth body armour (or the prototype invisibility suits), or the signal-emitting chips we've laced their food with, the homing bullets that home in on those chips, or the eavesdropping bugs that so appropriately are now being carried on the backs of real insects, and so on ... otherwise, they'd soon realise that they don't stand a chance ...
 
MikeM said:
As far as I know there is no "open policy" on Delta.. and up until the 90s.. (perhaps even to this day), the US Government has never officially acknowledged Delta.

I dunno - maybe you know something I don't, but ...

Officer Assignment Opportunities in Delta Force

(From: US Army PERSCOM Online)

The U.S. Army's 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta (1stSFOD-D) plans and conducts a broad range of special operations across the operationalcontinuum. Delta is organized for the conduct of missions requiring rapid response with surgical applications of a wide variety of unique skills, while maintaining the lowest possible profile of U.S. involvement.

Assignment to 1st SFOD-D involves an extensive prescreening process,successful completion of a 3 to 4 week mentally and physically demandingAssessment and Selection Course, and a 6 month operator Training Course.  Upon successful completion of these courses officers are assigned to anoperational position within the unit.

As an officer in 1st SFOD-D, you will have added opportunities to command at the CPT, MAJ, and LTC levels. You may also serve as an Operations Officer.Afterservice with 1st SFOD-D there are a wide variety of staff positions availableto you at DOD, JCS, DA, USASOC, USSOCOM, and other joint headquarters becauseof your training and experience. In addition, there are interagency positions available to you as well.

The prerequisites for an officer are:

Male
Volunteer
U.S. Citizen
Pass a modified Class II Flight Physical
Airborne qualified or volunteer for airborne training
Pass a background security investigation and have at leasta secret clearance.
Pass the Army Physical Fitness Test (APFT), FM 21-20,75 points each event in the 22-26 age group, (55 pushups in two minutes,62situps in two minutes, and a 2 mile run in 15:06 or less), wearing your unit PT uniform.
Minimum of two years active service remaining upon selection to the unit.
Captain or Major (Branch Immaterial).
Advance Course graduate.
College graduate (BA or BS).
Minimum of 12 months successful command (as a Captain).
1st SFOD-D conducts worldwide recruiting twice a year to process potential candidates for the Assessment and Selection Course. Processing for the March Course is from October through January. Processing for the September Course takes place April through July.
Assignments with 1st SFOD-D provide realistic training and experiences that are both personally and professionally rewarding.
 
The British gov'ts response to questions about the SAS is invariably "HM gov't will not comment on the activities of Special Forces" or words to that effect. All publicity about the lads in duvet jackets and gucci boots is unofficial, even when it is "officiallly approved."

It behooves a Canadian gov't to adopt a similar stance.

Acorn
 
I'd be remiss if I didn't also mention Master Sergeant Gary I. Gordon and Sergeant First Class Randall D. Shughart, United States Army:

Citation: Sergeant First Class Shughart, United States Army, distinguished himself by actions above and beyond the call of duty on 3 October 1993, while serving as a Sniper Team Member, United States Army Special Operations Command with Task Force Ranger in Mogadishu, Somalia.

Sergeant First Class Shughart provided precision sniper fires from the lead helicopter during an assault on a building and at two helicopter crash sites, while subjected to intense automatic weapons and rocket propelled grenade fires.

While providing critical suppressive fires at the second crash site, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader learned that ground forces were not immediately available to secure the site. Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader unhesitatingly volunteered to be inserted to protect the four critically wounded personnel, despite being well aware of the growing number of enemy personnel closing in on the site. After their third request to be inserted, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader received permission to perform this volunteer mission.

When debris and enemy ground fires at the site caused them to abort the first attempt, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader were inserted one hundred meters south of the crash site. Equipped with only his sniper rifle and a pistol, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader, while under intense small arms fire from the enemy, fought their way through a dense maze of shanties and shacks to reach the critically injured crew members. Sergeant First Class Shughart pulled the pilot and the other crew members from the aircraft, establishing a perimeter which placed him and his fellow sniper in the most vulnerable position. Sergeant First Class Shughart used his long range rifle and side arm to kill an undetermined number of attackers while traveling the perimeter, protecting the downed crew. Sergeant First Class Shughart continued his protective fire until he depleted his ammunition and was fatally wounded. His actions saved the pilot's life. Sergeant First Class Shughart's extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty were in keeping with the highest standards of military service and reflect great credit upon him, his unit and the United States Army.

More Details

During a raid in Mogadishu on 3 October 1993, MSG. Gary Gordon and SFC. Randall Shughart, leader and member of a sniper team with Task Force Ranger in Somalia, were providing precision and suppressive fires from helicopters above two helicopter crash sites. Learning that no ground forces were available to rescue one of the downed aircrews and aware that a growing number of enemy were closing in on the site, MSG. Gordon and SFC. Shughart volunteered to be inserted to protect their critically wounded comrades. Their initial request was turned down because of the danger of the situation. They asked a second time; permission was denied. Only after their third request were they inserted.

MSG. Gordon and SFC. Shughart were inserted one hundred meters south of the downed chopper. Armed only with their personal weapons, the two NCOs fought their way to the downed fliers through intense small arms fire, a maze of shanties and shacks, and the enemy converging on the site. After MSG. Gordon and SFC. Shughart pulled the wounded from the wreckage, they established a perimeter, put themselves in the most dangerous position, and fought off a series of attacks. The two NCOs continued to protect their comrades until they had depleted their ammunition and were themselves fatally wounded. Their actions saved the life of an Army pilot.

No one will ever know what was running through the minds of MSG. Gordon and SFC. Shughart as they left the comparative safety of their helicopter to go to the aid of the downed aircrew. The two NCOs knew there was no ground rescue force available, and they certainly knew there was no going back to their helicopter. They may have suspected that things would turn out as they did; nonetheless, they did what they believed to be the right thing. They acted based on Army values, which they had clearly made their own: loyalty to their fellow soldiers; the duty to stand by them, regardless of the circumstances; the personal courage to act, even in the face of great danger; selfless service, the willingness to give their all. MSG. Gary I. Gordon and SFC. Randall D. Shughart lived Army values to the end; they were posthumously awarded Medals of Honor.
 
Acorn said:
The British gov'ts response to questions about the SAS is invariably "HM gov't will not comment on the activities of Special Forces" or words to that effect. All publicity about the lads in duvet jackets and gucci boots is unofficial, even when it is "officiallly approved."

It behooves a Canadian gov't to adopt a similar stance.

Here is an incredibly pertinent debate, and a practical example of the requisite PERSEC:

THE CITATION

Whilst serving in Iraq as part of a joint special forces patrol with members of the Australian Special Air Service Regiment and US Rangers, Corporal ******* was dispatched with a number of the Australian SAS to carry out reconnaissance in an area of Baghdad occupied by large numbers of foreign enemy fighters involved in acts of terrorism within Iraq. During the reconnaissance, Corporal ******* and the Australian SAS soldier came under enemy engagement consisting of heavy gunfire, involving close quarters battle, over a period of two hours. During this time the Australian SAS soldier sustained life-threatening gunshot injuries and trauma. Corporal ****** gave immediate medical assistance. Whilst still under heavy attack from RPG and machine gun fire at close quarters, Corporal ****** engaged the enemy and continued to give medical assistance to the Australian SAS soldier. Corporal *******, whilst administering medical assistance, returned fire on the enemy and called in air strike. Corporal *******, killed some 36 enemy. Whilst fighting his way out of the area, he carried the injured Australian SAS soldier on his back for three miles, before being airlifted out of the area by helicopter. Corporal ****** during the engagement sustained shrapnel injuries requiring a period of medical treatment back in UK. Corporal *********'s actions showed the highest level of valour and gallantry in the face of overwhelming number of enemy and in the rescue of the Australian SAS soldier. It is recommended to her Majesty that Corporal ********* be awarded the Victoria Cross


NOT WORTH A VC?

Sep 9 2004
EXCLUSIVE
By Richard Smith And Patrick Mulchrone
 
AN SAS hero who killed 36 Iraqis to save the life of a stricken comrade could be denied a Victoria Cross - because he survived.

The 36-year-old British soldier was recommended for the gallantry medal by his commanding officers after he single-handedly held off enemy attackers in a two-hour gun battle when his unit was ambushed.

Despite being hit by shrapnel he then carried his shot and badly wounded colleague three miles to safety.

But special forces officers fear the brave corporal will be snubbed for the highest military honour because they say senior officials usually do not not give it to survivors.

Yesterday, a former general who commanded Special Forces said: "It would appear these days it is easier to achieve sainthood than to win a Victoria Cross while you are alive.

"Getting a soldier a VC is a lottery. And getting one for a member of Special Forces, whether he is SAS or the SBS, would appear to be nigh on impossible. The people in charge are paranoid about publicity, absolutely terrified of it.

"So even if his commander were to recommend a VC, those above would get the jitters.

"To deny a man a medal because everyone is frightened of publicity is bonkers. And that appears to be what it boils down to."

Allied Special Forces Association secretary Mike Colton added: "For that extraordinary act of bravery he must have a very high award. But there have been many acts of bravery within the special forces which have gone virtually unnoticed.

"Men have been mentioned in despatches during secret wars which have saved entire nations."

A military insider said: "They will raise the bar as high as possible citing the criteria needed to achieve the honour and they can probably make it up as they go. It is another pitiful example of this politically correct world we live in.

"The only things which should be considered are the individual's conspicuous act or gallantry."

But the MoD said: "It is a faultlessly fair system. Whatever he gets will be the right level of medal."

The corporal who was recommended for the honour is a former paratrooper from Liverpool.

He and an Australian colleague came under attack at close-quarters from machine gun fire and rocket propelled grenades in Baghdad when on a covert reconnaissance mission at an area heavily occupied by enemy forces engaged in terrorist activities..

Despite being under fire he gave medical aid to the Aussie, who had life-threatening injuries, while keeping the enemy at bay.

After escaping against all odds the two soldiers were finally airlifted to safety by helicopter.

In the corporal's medal recommendation his commanding officer said his "actions showed the highest level of valour and gallantry in the face of overwhelming number of enemy and in the rescue of the Australian Special Air Service Soldier".

Only one SAS officer has been awarded a Victoria Cross despite the regiment's glorious history. Dane Major Andres Lassen, 24, received the honour after his patrol was sent to cause mayhem at Lake Camacchio, Italy, in 1945.

He wiped out three positions against overwhelming odds then refused to be evacuated despite being mortally wounded.

It has been nearly 40 years since the last VC was awarded to a living recipient - Gurkha lance corporal Rambahadur Limbu. Only 11 of the medals, the first gallantry award open to all ranks, have been handed out since World War Two.

Gallantry decorations are recommended in the first instance by the individual soldier's superior officer, a squadron commander or company commander who writes a statement which goes before the commanding officer.

The final decision is made by the MoD Honours and Decorations Committee.

A spokesman said: "The recommendation goes through a checking process which can take several weeks and eventually the decision is made by the honours board which sits within the Ministry of Defence."

The corporal has spent eight years in the 22 SAS regiment - serving in D Squadron at the unit's new base in Credenhill, Hereford.

In a two-hour gun battle with terrorists, an SAS man aided a wounded comrade, despite being injured himself, killed 36 of the enemy, then fought his way out of the area, carrying the casualty for three miles.
 
Maybe I'm nuts but it seems unlikely that the DND would make policy critiques of other countries in response emails to random citizens.
 
merlane said:
"The JTF2 is surrounded by far more secrecy than either the SAS or Delta Force. Do you feel the open policy that these units have effected have been harmful to them?"

1)  This could not be answered with a simple 'yes' or 'no' because either answer would have to be supported with an argument.  It would also force an answer that is critical of our forces or of our allies forces.

2) Any justification for secrecy may very well be secret.
 
Wasn't Peter Worthing ton from the Toronto Sun moaning and bitching a while back that we don't need a secret unit of high-speed guys as there should be no secret military units in Canada..I wonder who paid him to say that?

And he was PPCLI at one time too! He should've known better.

Oh well. Faced with the curren attitude of the Canadian populace, I wouldn't tell them anything about JTF2 or anyone else either. Too dangerous...

Slim :cdn: :salute:

PS-It actually gives me a perverse kind of glee that the media are not allowed to know anything about them. It frustrates the media to no end.  ;D :salute:
 
About the Victoria Cross peace...didn't the journalist get it wrong? Were't two given to paras during the Falklands war?
 
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