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FORCE 2025: Informing the Army’s future structure

Kirkhill

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Barrett 50 - 15 kJ
Boys .55 - 17 kJ
Alligator 14.5 - 32 kJ
Lahti 20 - 47 kJ
Rh202 20 - 81 kJ
M242 25 - 110 kJ
 

Kirkhill

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More on the OMFV competition and reiteration of the vehicle troop loading

Each OMFV is designed to have a two-person crew and carry six soldiers in the back. Under current plans, according to Coffman, there will be six OMFVs per platoon, to carry a minimum of 30 soldiers total, or five each, meaning another seat will be available to transport an additional soldier, such as a medic or interpreter, or other equipment.

I read that as 6 fire teams of 4 in 3 squads with 12 seats for command and ancillaries. And a total of 12 crew.

 

KevinB

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More on the OMFV competition and reiteration of the vehicle troop loading



I read that as 6 fire teams of 4 in 3 squads with 12 seats for command and ancillaries. And a total of 12 crew.
Right now the Platoon down here in the US Army seems to be being reimagined.
30 man dismount platoon (29+1) +6 (Medic, Terp, HumInt, SOF etc folks) +12 crew.
Some are suggesting 3 x 10 man Squads for the dismount +atts, while others are pushing for 4 x 6 man Squad/Dets with a 5+1 Pl HQ + atts

Right now the Bradley Platoon is broken into 2 mounted Sections - Alpha and Bravo each with two Bradleys - OMFV would add Charlie Section with 2 vehicles - they are playing with the currently with 6 Bradley / Platoon to try to see what works best.

Bradley Dismounts from the 4 Bradley Platoon are broken up into 3 x 9 man Squads +1 the Platoon Leader (across the vehicles - the load plan is on the web, but basically A1 has 7 from 1st Squad, A2 has two pers from 1st Squad, the Platoon Leader, and 4 from 2nd Squad, B1 has 5 from 2nd Squad and 2 from 3rd Squad, B2 has 7 from 3rd Squad. The Platoon Leader and Platoon Sgt dismounts - and the Platoon Master Gunner takes the Platoon Leaders spot running the Bradleys (like the LAV Sgt) - and the Gunner takes over vehicle CC for the Platoon Sgt, and the A/Gunner moves to the Gunner spot
- it's a worse musical chair scenario than the LAV dismount...
 

daftandbarmy

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Right now the Platoon down here in the US Army seems to be being reimagined.
30 man dismount platoon (29+1) +6 (Medic, Terp, HumInt, SOF etc folks) +12 crew.
Some are suggesting 3 x 10 man Squads for the dismount +atts, while others are pushing for 4 x 6 man Squad/Dets with a 5+1 Pl HQ + atts

Right now the Bradley Platoon is broken into 2 mounted Sections - Alpha and Bravo each with two Bradleys - OMFV would add Charlie Section with 2 vehicles - they are playing with the currently with 6 Bradley / Platoon to try to see what works best.

Bradley Dismounts from the 4 Bradley Platoon are broken up into 3 x 9 man Squads +1 the Platoon Leader (across the vehicles - the load plan is on the web, but basically A1 has 7 from 1st Squad, A2 has two pers from 1st Squad, the Platoon Leader, and 4 from 2nd Squad, B1 has 5 from 2nd Squad and 2 from 3rd Squad, B2 has 7 from 3rd Squad. The Platoon Leader and Platoon Sgt dismounts - and the Platoon Master Gunner takes the Platoon Leaders spot running the Bradleys (like the LAV Sgt) - and the Gunner takes over vehicle CC for the Platoon Sgt, and the A/Gunner moves to the Gunner spot
- it's a worse musical chair scenario than the LAV dismount...

A couple of good drivers and gunners could probably run the ZULU show .... just sayin' ;)
 

Kirkhill

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Right now the Platoon down here in the US Army seems to be being reimagined.
30 man dismount platoon (29+1) +6 (Medic, Terp, HumInt, SOF etc folks) +12 crew.
Some are suggesting 3 x 10 man Squads for the dismount +atts, while others are pushing for 4 x 6 man Squad/Dets with a 5+1 Pl HQ + atts

Right now the Bradley Platoon is broken into 2 mounted Sections - Alpha and Bravo each with two Bradleys - OMFV would add Charlie Section with 2 vehicles - they are playing with the currently with 6 Bradley / Platoon to try to see what works best.

Bradley Dismounts from the 4 Bradley Platoon are broken up into 3 x 9 man Squads +1 the Platoon Leader (across the vehicles - the load plan is on the web, but basically A1 has 7 from 1st Squad, A2 has two pers from 1st Squad, the Platoon Leader, and 4 from 2nd Squad, B1 has 5 from 2nd Squad and 2 from 3rd Squad, B2 has 7 from 3rd Squad. The Platoon Leader and Platoon Sgt dismounts - and the Platoon Master Gunner takes the Platoon Leaders spot running the Bradleys (like the LAV Sgt) - and the Gunner takes over vehicle CC for the Platoon Sgt, and the A/Gunner moves to the Gunner spot
- it's a worse musical chair scenario than the LAV dismount...

Are they optimizing to crash onto the objective or to dismount, form up and fight their way onto the objective?
 

markppcli

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A couple of good drivers and gunners could probably run the ZULU show .... just sayin' ;)

Sigh, not this again.

Are they optimizing to crash onto the objective or to dismount, form up and fight their way onto the objective?

In my conversations with an officer from a Bradley unit; it depends on situation. Much like us the quick attack vs deliberate vs breach with tanks all require different SOPs. I can’t imagine a Bradley seating change flows well if it’s a close dismount though. Happily now, in regards to @KevinB ’s comment about musical chairs, we let people keep the seats they fight from for just that reason. One day the school will also get on board.
 

markppcli

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The Alternative to the IFV strategy.

Boxers and Wiesels


The Boxer, as used by the Germans, is an armoured bus, a troop transporter for the dismount infantry. Its main armament is an RWS with either a 12.7mm HMG or a 40mm GMG. These are for close protection of the vehicle only.

The Battalion's heavy weapons are carried separately in the Wiesel. Many on this site have commented on the Wiesel before, a light, air and helitransportable tracked vehicle that carries a variety of weapons. The principal weapons pairing is a Wiesel with an ATGM (currently the venerable TOW) and another Wiesel with a dual feed 20 mm autocannon. The Wiesel is also used for a mounted 120mm mortar system, a light anti-aircraft system and assorted FOVs, CPs and sensors. These can accompany the troops on deployment by air even when their Boxers can't.

The 20mm/ATGM pairing deserves some further consideration.

The Javelin/NLAW ATGMs have been getting lots of good press in Ukraine but as the war drags on stocks are under stress. That has prompted the Ukrainians to build a 14.5 mm Anti-Materiel Rifle with a 2 km range to take the load off the ATGMs. In much the same way I fancy the 20mm takes the load off of the TOWs in the German Wiesels.


Given that NLAW weighs 12.5 kg, the Javelin weighs 22.3 kg and the Alligator AMR weighs 25 kg I can only think that those weapons would benefit from having weapons carriers to transport them. In which case why not the Wiesel?

Especially given that Rheinmetall has a new optionally manned version


This is based on the same technology as Rheinmetall's other autonomous systems.


View attachment 71848


Leave the IFVs to the RCAC and the Panzergrenadiers.

Buy ACSV TCVs for infantry transport and put the battalion weapons companies on board something that can be lifted by air in the same helicopters and aircraft as the rifles.
Out of curiosity do you have a link for the German boxer unit ttps or the make up of their Wiesel company / platoons ?

Worth noting is that the life extension upgrades to the weisle will see them replaced in Boxer equipped units by… boxer. Heeres-Planung: Boxer-‚Radschützenpanzer‘ soll Wiesel ablösen – Augen geradeaus!
 
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FJAG

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Out of curiosity do you have a link for the German boxer unit ttps or the make up of their Wiesel company / platoons ?
I've done a quick search of the Wikipedia.de site and have found the following re the current Boxer equipped Jägerbataillon 292 - with a translation that follows:
Das Jägerbataillon 292 gliedert sich in eine Versorgungs- und Unterstützungskompanie, drei Jägerkompanien und eine Schwere Jägerkompanie.

Die Kampfkompanien setzen sich aus insgesamt vier Zügen sowie der Kompanieführungsgruppe, einem Kompaniefeldwebeltrupp, einem Versorgungstrupp und dem Technischen Trupp zusammen. Der erste bis dritte Zug sind Infanteriezüge aus jeweils drei Gruppen (zwei Unteroffiziere mit Portepee und acht Soldaten) sowie einem Zugtrupp. Der vierte, (schwere) Infanteriezug ist mit schweren Infanteriewaffen wie Granatmaschinenwaffe und Panzerabwehrwaffe MILAN ausgestattet. Ihm ist die Scharfschützengruppe der Kompanie unterstellt. Diese unterstützt die Jägerzüge im Gefecht.

In der fünften (bis 2006 sechsten) (Schweren) Kompanie befinden sich die 120-mm-Mörser (acht Rohre Panzermörser M 113), der Panzerabwehrzug (sechs Wiesel mit TOW), der Maschinenkanonenzug (sechs Wiesel mit MK 20), der Aufklärungszug (sechs Wiesel und zwei Geländefahrzeug gl Wolf) sowie der Feuerunterstützungszug mit dem Joint Fire Support Coordination Team (JFSCT) und vier Joint Fire Support Teams (JFST). Die ehemalige sechste (bis 2006 fünfte) Kompanie war die Einsatz- und Unterstützungskompanie des Bataillons, die den Hauptauftrag der Grundausbildung wahrnahm. Diese wurde in drei Zügen durchgeführt. Sie stellte weiterhin den Sicherungs- und Unterstützungszug, dessen Gliederung und Auftrag im Wesentlichen dem der leichten Infanteriezüge in den Kampfkompanien entsprach. Innerhalb des Stationierungskonzeptes 2011 wurde die sechste Kompanie Ende 2012 aufgelöst.[1]

The 292nd Jägerbataillon is divided into a supply and support company, three infantry companies and one heavy infantry company.

The combat companies consist of a total of four platoons as well as the company command group, a company sergeant squad, a supply squad and the technical squad. The first to third platoons are infantry platoons each consisting of three groups [i.e. sections] (two senior non-commissioned officers and eight soldiers) and a platoon squad. The fourth (heavy) infantry platoon is equipped with heavy infantry weapons such as automatic grenade launchers and MILAN anti-tank weapons. The company's sniper squad reports to him. This supports the infantry platoons in battle.

The fifth (until 2006 sixth) (heavy) company includes the 120 mm mortar (eight barrels of M 113 tank mortars), the anti-tank platoon (six Wiesel with TOW), the machine gun platoon (six Wiesel with MK 20), the reconnaissance platoon ( six Weasels and two all-terrain vehicles gl Wolf) as well as the fire support platoon with the Joint Fire Support Coordination Team (JFSCT) and four Joint Fire Support Teams (JFST). The former sixth (until 2006 fifth) company was the battalion's operational and support company, performing the main mission of basic training. This was done in three moves. They continued to provide the security and support platoon, whose structure and mission essentially corresponded to that of the light infantry platoons in the combat companies. Within the stationing concept of 2011, the sixth company was dissolved at the end of 2012.[1]

There's an image for a rifle platoon from a prior organization circa 1985. I doubt if it has changed much other than the vehicles which would have changed from five wheeled vehicles to four Boxers. Note that the section has gone from one senior NCO to two - presumably one vehicle commander and one dismount commander. Most of the terms are self explanatory but if you need any translated just let me know.

1200px-STAN-1.jpg


Just as an aside, this relates to a PanzerGrenadierbataillon:

The PzGrenBtl 371 currently uses the Marder infantry fighting vehicle (44 pieces, 14 of which per Panzergrenadier company and two in the supply and support company). According to the Federal Ministry of Defence, the introduction of the SPz Puma will be delayed until 2025 at the latest.

Note the absence of any "weapons company". The "Supply and Support Company" would translate better as a HQ and HQ Coy as it also contains the battalion HQ personnel and signals platoon.

🍻
 

markppcli

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Not to worry Mark. Sooner or later you will get it right. :LOL:

I’ll wait for you to explain ho the gunner is supposed to look to the right of the vehicle but I suppose actual knowledge of a platform is secondary to shaking one’s fist at the sky.

On that note thanks for the information @FJAG, I wasn’t sure if those 20mm Weisles were fire support or recce tasked. Either way turreted Puma variants as supposed to be replacing them outside of the air borne.
 

KevinB

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I’ll wait for you to explain ho the gunner is supposed to look to the right of the vehicle but I suppose actual knowledge of a platform is secondary to shaking one’s fist at the sky.
I would assume the gunner would move over to the CC spot - so he couldn't see out of the left ;)
 

Kirkhill

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I’ll wait for you to explain ho the gunner is supposed to look to the right of the vehicle but I suppose actual knowledge of a platform is secondary to shaking one’s fist at the sky.

On that note thanks for the information @FJAG, I wasn’t sure if those 20mm Weisles were fire support or recce tasked. Either way turreted Puma variants as supposed to be replacing them outside of the air borne.

Turreted Pumas with tracks are to be mixed with wheeled Boxers? Still retaining a heavy weapons company construction but with Pumas instead of Wiesels? Or are we looking at turreted Boxers?

As to fields of view - aren't the vehicles working in teams covering each other's arcs?
 

markppcli

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Turreted Pumas with tracks are to be mixed with wheeled Boxers? Still retaining a heavy weapons company construction but with Pumas instead of Wiesels? Or are we looking at turreted Boxers?

As to fields of view - aren't the vehicles working in teams covering each other's arcs?
Typo, turreted Boxers.

I don’t think I need to explain to you why being able to see the side of a vehicle is important when you're conducting a fire base. Yet again I mean.
 
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