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Informing the Army’s Future Structure

I think our definition of "readiness" - especially "high readiness" is very much influenced by Ottawa's practice to risk aversion. I find it somewhat hypocritical that the Army has gone to such an extreme level of anal retentiveness with the states of training but at the same time has missed the mark totally at providing the troops with the equipment which they need to survive in a war. All of our governments' defence policy statements include a provision to be capable of high-intensity operations yet we do not have some very key equipment needed for that.

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…if only the main deploying forces could be brought to high readiness to DAG’n’Go as quickly as the TAV 30+1 days types do… 😉
 
FJAG:

Do you know the reason why there are no small car manufacturers? And why it is so difficult to start a mom and pop food business?

Because there is so much "non-productive" but "essential" work that has to be done. That work is covered by Overhead, by Administration, by Utilities, Bricks and Mortar, Consultants, Lawyers, Accountants, Tax Assessors ad infinitum.

A small military faces the same challenges, IMO. Especially one that aspires to do everything and is reluctant to make choices, that is reluctant to cut the suit to the suit the cloth.
Sorry, but I don't quite understand where you're going with this post. If you are talking about my decision to ignore the issue of overhead in my last post I did so because the two aren't as easy to compare as the "combat" to "support" ratios because our integrated force structure makes that hard as against their no integrated Army. I didn't do it because I didn't think it was essential to have such overhead.
If the intent is to cooperate with the Yanks then the inclination is to have a Canadian available to sit in every Yankee office. So we start filling from the top down. The alternative is to accept that we can't do everything we want, even if it is because our taxpayers are unaware and uncaring of the risks and costs around them, and do what we can.
I don't see those as the only choices at all.
And we can do a light force. We can't do a heavy force.
Yes we can and that is essentially what we are doing in Latvia. The issue is not whether or not we can do heavy; the issues are how large a force can we do heavy with? what capabilities are we short to do it effectively and how do we compensate for those?
We're kidding ourselves that 80 refurbed, super-annuated Cold War relics is a solid foundation on which to build a heavy division. It is the basis on which to build a single armoured battle group and no more.
Actually with that number you can build an Armoured Brigade Combat Team ( which has 73 tanks). It's many of the key enablers were short on.
As to the arty, when does it become apparent that the world has moved on and it is time to replace 6 pdr rifled breech loaders with 18 pdr QF guns and 4.5" howitzers?
I think everyone knows that. The Army lost its way over the last twenty years. Knowing things are screwed up and correcting them in this very sluggish combat development and equipment acquisition system Canada runs are two different things
I'm not having a dig. But there is an awful lot of change in the air and we already missed a generation of changes (like not buying Light Guns when everyone else was or not buying MLRS and AD and Attack Helicopters when everyone else was). Our allies are moving on from the AirLand Battle and re-examining which of those legacy systems have legs and which ones need to be cut to free up cash for other systems that they think/believe/hope/feel will be more useful.
We have left AirLand battle behind around the turn of the millennium. We haven't replaced with anything that I'd call concrete doctrine albeit we have flirted with adaptive dispersed operations and now with Pan-Domain operations (our answer to the US Army's Multi-Domain Operations and the related USAF and USN's new doctrines).

I don't doubt that the intellectual debates are going on at higher levels about this (notwithstanding various government lobbed harassing hand grenades thrown in from the sidelines). Here's an example. We're just not seeing any quick (or even reasonable) action and in fact have seen counterproductive activities (such as the deactivating air defence and still not having a MALE UAV)

The point though is that just because there are new capabilities does not automatically mean old legacy systems are obsolete. We do not yet understand the full extent of newer systems and their limitations and while we're figuring that out new countermeasures are being developed and even newer offensive systems are being developed. One still needs to seize ground and you don't do that with a UAV or even a hypersonic missile. You do that with armoured and protected ground forces which, for the time being, are manned systems. In the future they may be autonomous or semi-autonomous but they'll still be classified as heavy.
When are we going to roll the dice and take a chance? Because ultimately that is what this is all about. We can never know the future perfectly so we must always be prepared to chance it.
We've been doing that but in doing so we've been betting that nothing serious is going to happen. On this issue I'm a glass half empty guy.
We debate interminably. We act so infrequently that movement seems imperceptible.
You know I keep pondering that. I know many of the folks that have made some of these poor decisions. They're for the most part good guys and reasonably smart. At least as smart as you and I and in many cases a lot smarter. They have the Army's best interest at heart and believe they are doing the best thing in light of the circumstances. There have been serious debates and push back on a lot of things but in the end, we are where we are.

I tend to put down the workings of Ottawa as the boiling frog syndrome. You simply do not understand the peril they're in as the water gets gradually warmer. Too many small issues divert you from seeing your real goals much less achieving them.

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You know I keep pondering that. I know many of the folks that have made some of these poor decisions. They're for the most part good guys and reasonably smart. At least as smart as you and I and in many cases a lot smarter. They have the Army's best interest at heart and believe they are doing the best thing in light of the circumstances. There have been serious debates and push back on a lot of things but in the end, we are where we are.
You and I disagree at this point - IMHO more GOFO should publicly fall on their sword (they have their pension anyway) for needed programs rather than accept the bad/no solution.

I also have seen so many of them take a sampling of the direction of the wind, before they make recommendation or support something.
As well a few have absolutely about turned when the wind shifted -- I have zero time or respect for an Officer like that.
I tend to put down the workings of Ottawa as the boiling frog syndrome. You simply do not understand the peril they're in as the water gets gradually warmer. Too many small issues divert you from seeing your real goals much less achieving them.

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I think it's more the soul destructive power of NDHQ - I know a lot of bright motivated people who went in, and where hollow shells of themselves after.
 
You and I disagree at this point - IMHO more GOFO should publicly fall on their sword (they have their pension anyway) for needed programs rather than accept the bad/no solution.

I also have seen so many of them take a sampling of the direction of the wind, before they make recommendation or support something.
As well a few have absolutely about turned when the wind shifted -- I have zero time or respect for an Officer like that.

I think it's more the soul destructive power of NDHQ - I know a lot of bright motivated people who went in, and where hollow shells of themselves after.
We actually don't disagree.

While I say I think they acted with best interest, I also believe that there should have been wholesale falling on swords or being put to the figurative sword. Even with the best of intentions, if the policies you create, or follow, fail then the right thing to do is accept responsibility Every once in a while on this forum I keep complaining that there isn't enough use of NDA section 124 Negligent Performance of Duty.

Just as an aside, did you know that in Feb 2003 MGen Cameron Ross, the Director General of International Security Policy resigned over the announcement that Canadian troops were going to Kabul? He did so in protest over the Chretien government's past lack of properly providing the Forces the resources that they needed and the fact that there was no relief on the horizon while another 2,000 troops were being deployed. It does happen, but generally not often and usually not loudly.

The trouble is that in my view the whole chain of events that got us where we are today is because of transformations that were set in motion back in the late 1990s early 2000s and the folks behind those are all long gone. Dumb stuff was still going on when I retired in 2009 and since then I've lost touch with the inner workings (to the extent I ever really had touch with them).

On a recent note, any failures to move forward the modernization and optimization of the Forces, and particulalry the Army, since Russia's 2014 actions in the Ukraine is criminal negligence. It has the potential to cause a lot of unnecessary deaths.

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I've no doubt there are people smarter than us pondering the situation. And I don't doubt they are good guys. But for gawd's sake I wish they would decide. Something. Anything.

How about a 7 year term for each of the Chiefs of Staff with one being swapped out every year?

Put some continuity into the system. Maybe that would help.
 
On a recent note, any failures to move forward the modernization and optimization of the Forces, and particulalry the Army, since Russia's 2014 actions in the Ukraine is criminal negligence. It has the potential to cause a lot of unnecessary deaths.

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Oh come, come my good man. Certainly we have the right manning, weapons, tactics and equipment to match/counter this type of Russian tomfoolery....

Artillery Launch in Ukraine. Massive Grad and Uragan Rocket Launch In Eastern Ukraine​


 
In effect CJOC is Canada's unified combatant command for the conduct of operations anywhere in the world including within Canada.
[tangent] I've seen this before, and it is not accurate. A Unified Combatant Commander responds directly to the political leadership of the US (National Command Authority is the old term - now POTUS/SECDEF). They are responsible for taking political direction, forging strategy, and providing it to subordinate theatres forces to turns into operations.

CJOC has no strategic function. It takes CDS strategic directives and turns it into operations.

The strategic authorities and responsibilities (which are substantial) wielded by a Combatant Commander in the US are, in a Canadian context, vested in the CDS. The Strategic Joint Staff assists him or her in executing these authorities. CJOC, if we wish to continue drawing parallels to the US, is in effect a sub-unified command. Comd CJOC, however, maintains relationships with Combatant Commanders due to the "trifurcated" nature of the US system (three separate and distinct command authorities which in Canada are all vested in the CDS) - the CDS simply doesn't have the bandwidth to link into all of these 4*s and focuses on the CJCS as the de facto US ChOD. [/tangent]
 
Oh come, come my good man. Certainly we have the right manning, weapons, tactics and equipment to match/counter this type of Russian tomfoolery....

Artillery Launch in Ukraine. Massive Grad and Uragan Rocket Launch In Eastern Ukraine​




I can just hear the dude in field in the last shoot, as he is puffing on his Cuban, "I love the sound of rockets in the morning". ;)


FJAG, I have chilled and I regret the tone, if not the content, of my last outburst. It's just that I don't share your sense of the possible and the useful.

We will continue to disagree I fear.

:giggle: Cheers, Sir.
 
[tangent] I've seen this before, and it is not accurate. A Unified Combatant Commander responds directly to the political leadership of the US (National Command Authority is the old term - now POTUS/SECDEF). They are responsible for taking political direction, forging strategy, and providing it to subordinate theatres forces to turns into operations.

CJOC has no strategic function. It takes CDS strategic directives and turns it into operations.

The strategic authorities and responsibilities (which are substantial) wielded by a Combatant Commander in the US are, in a Canadian context, vested in the CDS. The Strategic Joint Staff assists him or her in executing these authorities. CJOC, if we wish to continue drawing parallels to the US, is in effect a sub-unified command. Comd CJOC, however, maintains relationships with Combatant Commanders due to the "trifurcated" nature of the US system (three separate and distinct command authorities which in Canada are all vested in the CDS) - the CDS simply doesn't have the bandwidth to link into all of these 4*s and focuses on the CJCS as the de facto US ChOD. [/tangent]
Good point. That's a very important distinction.

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I can just hear the dude in field in the last shoot, as he is puffing on his Cuban, "I love the sound of rockets in the morning". ;)


FJAG, I have chilled and I regret the tone, if not the content, of my last outburst. It's just that I don't share your sense of the possible and the useful.

We will continue to disagree I fear.

:giggle: Cheers, Sir.

I've just read the latest PowerPoint presentation on the COAs for Force 2025 and all that I can say is the discussions in this thread by all of us are more realistic, more productive and more forward leaning than the drivel I just saw.

I certainly withdraw anything that I've said that might suggest that the folks working on Force 2025 are smarter than us. There is an idea or two in there worth grabbing onto but overall its incoherent and misses most of the real issues that need to be solved.

:mad:

ps. If all we did was agree with each other on this site it wouldn't be half as much fun or half as informative.

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Because an Army reorg plan is only going to tinker with Army assets. 1 Div is not Army, it is CJOC.

And thereby hangs the tale! Thanks McG.

The reason why we need a 2nd operational Div HQ is because the 1st Div HQ doesn't exist. It is a misnamed Joint Operation.....

In the meantime we have 4 other Militia Regions masquerading as non-existent Divisions.

Thankfully I have got lots of home-made scrumpy.
 
And thereby hangs the tale! Thanks McG.

The reason why we need a 2nd operational Div HQ is because the 1st Div HQ doesn't exist. It is a misnamed Joint Operation.....

In the meantime we have 4 other Militia Regions masquerading as non-existent Divisions.

Thankfully I have got lots of home-made scrumpy.

What we really need, of course, is 1 x Reg F Div and 1 x Militia Div.

Because what we do really well is 'divisions' :)
 
What we really need, of course, is 1 x Reg F Div and 1 x Militia Div.

Because what we do really well is 'divisions' :)
move all Reg force elements under CJOC directly, 2nd Div becomes the controller for all Reserve and institutional training
 
move all Reg force elements under CJOC directly, 2nd Div becomes the controller for all Reserve and institutional training

You know what? That might just work, as long as the Reserves can keep the egoes of their 'Junior Generals' in check :)
 
We speak of brigades and divisions, and yet can't provide a single BG with what it needs to operate effectively in this century.

We lack almost everything on the high end (except GOFOs) and the average Taliban fighter is now probably better equipped on an individual scale than most of the RegF and all of the PRes.

Force 2025, indeed.
 
You know what? That might just work, as long as the Reserves can keep the egoes of their 'Junior Generals' in check :)
That is where you force the reserves to be realistic entities to their actual strength, less LCol's and Col's means less Jr Generals

Two divisions, one for ops, and one for training works for the air force seemingly well, why not the army? yes they are not perfect either but it would save a fair amount of PY's to eliminate 4 div HQ's
 
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We speak of brigades and divisions, and yet can't provide a single BG with what it needs to operate effectively in this century.

We lack almost everything on the high end (except GOFOs) and the average Taliban fighter is now probably better equipped on an individual scale than most of the RegF and all of the PRes.

Force 2025, indeed.
Well to be fair, the Taliban doesn't have to deal with LCMM's and DLR...
 
I've just read the latest PowerPoint presentation on the COAs for Force 2025 and all that I can say is the discussions in this thread by all of us are more realistic, more productive and more forward leaning than the drivel I just saw.

I certainly withdraw anything that I've said that might suggest that the folks working on Force 2025 are smarter than us. There is an idea or two in there worth grabbing onto but overall its incoherent and misses most of the real issues that need to be solved.

:mad:
So its not just the Navy that is living in a fantasy?
 
So its not just the Navy that is living in a fantasy?
I actually like the Navy's direction with the CSC (albeit I think all its other ships need some serious weaponizing).

The question for you guys is how are you going to man it. That might have a knock on effect for the Army. If you cut the CSC fleet by just one that could free up some serious cash to buy a lot of ground-based stuff. 😉

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