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Force Protection failure in Greece: RCN ship vandalized


NST had provided security the last time an HMC ship was in that port. Apparently no measures in place this time around.

Facebook comment from a former NST NCO:

''Lots of silly comments from people who think they know all about Force Protection. First, when we stood up NST in the exact same port we had two check points and a guarded gate with spike strips and Greek police manning those gates. Second, you would never open fire on people especially if the threat triangle isn't complete. Not sure how they got so close to the ship with the normal security measures in place, but it happened and it was only paint. However, this is exactly why you secure the jetty prior to a ship coming alongside using CAF and local authorities. De-escalate as best as possible and then use non-lethal force such as your fire hoses rigged on the upper decks.......trust me, they will stop someone
😉
.....ask ST....lol.''


Some context from a more friendly Greek:

''Alright... As a Greek-Canadian (served both in the Greek and Canadian army) I would like to apologize. Those guys are fuckin morons and stupid as fuck!
In 1932 Russia would give huge amounts of money(in other words fund) KKE(those fucking cunts who thru the paint), So one day they would "rule" Greece. The Greek army didn't let that happen and thru a lot of them in the jail.. So since then they can't stand the sight of any military uniform. Whenever they see anything that has to do with military they throw paint cans.
Sorry for my bad English!''
 

TacticalTea

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I would hope there already a Status of Forces Agreement in place for any country where one is planning on doing a port visit.
Nope.

NST and the organizations that support it actively work on SOFAs precisely for that reason, but sometimes fail, such as was the case when they went in Korea and couldn't actually arm their jetty sentries.

Thankfully, that Korea deployment was just an IOC/Proof of concept endeavour, so the lessons that had to be learned were learned, which is why we do training. They conducted the training with plastic guns instead.

And I'll comment more generally on the UoF regarding this week's incident here:

We all know that UoF is a spectrum. For that reason, I think the ''Proximity'' factor makes no sense. 1. AFAIK It's not even in our CF joint doctrine. 2. You want to start using force before the threat is in proximity. That doesn't necessarily mean lethal force. Presence is UoF. Verbal/Non-verbal commands are UoF. Demonstration of weaponry (unholstering, chambering firearms, rigging and charging fire hoses) is UoF.

Building on that, the footage we have shows there was zero UoF employed. No horns, no one telling them to get away. The only visible sentry is up on the foscle, slouching, apparently on the outboard side. Not much deterrence there.

I will refrain from speculating here, but there is plenty room for concern.
 
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lenaitch

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Those who were wondering how far the ship is from the public area (video):

And the phallic statue commemorates . . . ?
 

KevinB

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Those who were wondering how far the ship is from the public area (video):

I'm thinking the RCN may want to investigate a little thing called LRAD...
LRAD Products - Genasys Inc.
It's less messy than a water cannon and more effectible without the whole injuring people knocked off their feet thing.
 

TacticalTea

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I'm thinking the RCN may want to investigate a little thing called LRAD...
LRAD Products - Genasys Inc.
It's less messy than a water cannon and more effectible without the whole injuring people knocked off their feet thing.
Very nice.

Although the Canadian public might not appreciate.

I remember back in 2012, during Quebec's student protests, the SPVM started using similar technology. Branded as sound cannons, it was described as auditory torture by some in the SPVM's target audience as well as in the medias, and caused a bit of an outroar.

Personally, I know I would greatly appreciate the ability to use such a system as a communication tool.
 

Furniture

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Why train in FP when we can do an alongside fire EX in the Wardroom flats at 1605 every day? No need to change tradition and include FP....
Incorrect. No Judge will give you a pass for shooting someone throwing a petrol bomb. You, the trigger puller that is, will likely be tried for murder.

A good example of why these kinds of things need to be rehearsed ;)
Can't be rehearsed, on the seventh day God decreed that the duty watch exercise be a Class A fine in a living space at 1605 every weekday, and between 1300-1600 on Weekends.

FP didn't make it into Genesis, so the navy refuses to practice it.
 

KevinB

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Nope.

NST and the organizations that support it actively work on SOFAs precisely for that reason, but sometimes fail, such as was the case when they went in Korea and couldn't actually arm their jetty sentries.

Thankfully, that Korea deployment was just an IOC/Proof of concept endeavour, so the lessons that had to be learned were learned, which is why we do training. They conducted the training with plastic guns instead.

And I'll comment more generally on the UoF regarding this week's incident here:

We all know that UoF is a spectrum. For that reason, I think the ''Proximity'' factor makes no sense. 1. AFAIK It's not even in our CF joint doctrine. 2. You want to start using force before the threat is in proximity. That doesn't necessarily mean lethal force. Presence is UoF. Verbal/Non-verbal commands are UoF. Demonstration of weaponry (unholstering, chambering firearms, rigging and charging fire hoses) are UoF.

Building on that, the footage we have shows there was zero UoF employed. No horns, no one telling them to get away. The only visible sentry is up on the foscle, slouching, apparently on the outboard side. Not much deterrence there.

I will refrain from speculating here, but there is plenty room for concern.
I prefer ROE ;)

Half of the IMHO idiotic aspect of that doctrine need to go.

1) Presence - it's a fucking warship - the fact it is there is already presence, it's got missiles and guns - anyone who thinks that you need more presence than that needs a kick in the teeth (IMHO).

Weapons - there is no point in a non loaded and readied weapon, I don't know where people still cling to Cyprus era ideas that making a dramatic aspect of getting ones weapon into. state it should have been already in makes sense.
A Pistol or Rifle/Carbine etc is a Lethal Weapon - it shouldn't be used for jacking around threatening the potential for Force - it is just used when needed - period.

What needs to occur is decent threat assessments, and a decent amount of less lethal options, as well as range band option for both lethal and less lethal engagement

1) Visual and Audio Commands:
Loud Hailer: Stop and Stamatá (Greek for Stop - okay technically stops - but it is used as a stop command, see I did retain something from Cyprus back in the day)
Perhaps a Dazzler - on the individual(s) GLARE LA-9/P
LRAD

DMR Team for precision application of lethal force is needed.
 

Halifax Tar

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Why train in FP when we can do an alongside fire EX in the Wardroom flats at 1605 every day? No need to change tradition and include FP....

Can't be rehearsed, on the seventh day God decreed that the duty watch exercise be a Class A fine in a living space at 1605 every weekday, and between 1300-1600 on Weekends.

FP didn't make it into Genesis, so the navy refuses to practice it.

You mean the daily exercises shouldn't just be about DC ?

And every EO just proclaimed:

Warhammer 40K Twitch GIF by Hyper RPG
 

TacticalTea

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I prefer ROE ;)

Half of the IMHO idiotic aspect of that doctrine need to go.

1) Presence - it's a fucking warship - the fact it is there is already presence, it's got missiles and guns - anyone who thinks that you need more presence than that needs a kick in the teeth (IMHO).
Eh, sure, but while alongside, those aren't manned and don't mean much. Difference between Presence at the FP level and operational/strategic level.
Weapons - there is no point in a non loaded and readied weapon, I don't know where people still cling to Cyprus era ideas that making a dramatic aspect of getting ones weapon into. state it should have been already in makes sense.
A Pistol or Rifle/Carbine etc is a Lethal Weapon - it shouldn't be used for jacking around threatening the potential for Force - it is just used when needed - period.
I generally agree with those points, but that's not how the RCN operates at present, so... can't really blame the bottom rung for not doing what they're told not to do!

Edit: I would add, some applications of UoF can be more useful in determining intent than actually deterring the threat.
What needs to occur is decent threat assessments, and a decent amount of less lethal options, as well as range band option for both lethal and less lethal engagement
Yep, but that requires putting in the work to get those tools, train and equip our people with those tools, and get the SOFAs so we can legally use those tools.
DMR Team for precision application of lethal force is needed.
:love:
 

QV

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So 7 personnel got over the fenced perimeter - crossed the visible red line - and no action was taken...

Fail.
This whole scenario is symbolic of the general culture and attitude towards FP in the CAF/DND/GoC. I don’t want to trigger myself, so that’s all I have to say...today.
 

KevinB

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Eh, sure, but while alongside, those aren't manned and don't mean much. Difference between Presence at the FP level and operational/strategic level.
I’d argue that’s perception not reality.
Most of the opposition is going to be shocked (if they even realize what someone is doing chambering a round) that one wasn’t already ready.
Any serious attack is going to reveal itself at the last possible moment and having to insert a mag or just rack the changing handle (or slide for pistol) is moments too long.

I generally agree with those points, but that's not how the RCN operates at present, so... can't really blame the bottom rung for not doing what they're told not to do!
I place the blame at the institution and those who command it. Plus Ships Captain, XO, and anyone else in the FP chain

Edit: I would add, some applications of UoF can be more useful in determining intent than actually deterring the threat.
Hitting them with the dazzler and LRAD makes it pretty clear if they come closer they are determined to eat lead…

Yep, but that requires putting in the work to get those tools, train and equip our people with those tools, and get the SOFAs so we can legally use those tools.

:love:
Without a SOFA one can argue you are actually under blanket immunity by the RCN
They have been a lot of legal arguments on what occurs without a SOFA, but it’s best for both Nations to have one in place so there aren’t larger misunderstandings
 

OldSolduer

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I’d argue that’s perception not reality.
Most of the opposition is going to be shocked (if they even realize what someone is doing chambering a round) that one wasn’t already ready.
Any serious attack is going to reveal itself at the last possible moment and having to insert a mag or just rack the changing handle (or slide for pistol) is moments too long.


I place the blame at the institution and those who command it.
There's a serious IMO lack of SA training amongst the CAF at large. Hear me out.

As I said before everyone is responsible for their own defence. I noticed in my 35+ years of service that many non combat arms trades were not confident with their own weapons handling. In some instances I heard through the grapevine gate guards in operational theatres were told to remove the bolts from the C9 to prevent NDs. This is not confirmed. If this is true its a huge breach.

Many support trades - you know I love y'all - always argue "the infantry will protect us"> Not so sunshine - they are out engaging the enemy. You have to learn to protect yourselves.
 

Lumber

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What needs to occur is decent threat assessments, and a decent amount of less lethal options, as well as range band option for both lethal and less lethal engagement
1. How do you know we don't get decent threat assessments?
2. I would argue that the fact that we haven't been attacked since the Cole bombing means were doing a pretty good job. (I'm not counting this as an attack)
 

btrudy

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Seriously. "Some paint got on the ship" is not in any way shape or form indicative of a lack of adequate intelligence or accurate threat assessments. I really don't get why everyone seems hell-bent on treating this event like it's some sort of major catastrophe.
 

TacticalTea

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1. How do you know we don't get decent threat assessments?
2. I would argue that the fact that we haven't been attacked since the Cole bombing means were doing a pretty good job. (I'm not counting this as an attack)
1. TAs aren't infallible. And his point included less-lethals, which we really don't have any of. NBPs and NTOG are trained on those, however, which kinda supports his earlier point that such assets should be further leveraged in naval FP.
2. A. That's not actually true, but I can't go over that here. B. That's the sort of thinking the Navy is infamous for. Just because something hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean everything is fine and daddy, with no room for improvement.
 
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