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Franklin Expedition

SeaKingTacco

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In what sense is that "nice"?

Is your hatred actually so strong that you cannot see the historical significance of this?

I actually would not care if a (hypothetical) PM Trudeau or PM Mulcair were onstage yesterday- I still would have found this to be a neat story.  But, maybe I am just a simpleton....
 

Colin Parkinson

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Kilo_302 said:

The hate is strong in that one. The oral knowledge did play a part in the search and somehow not wasting time and money on another "commission" is a sign of Harper being Hateful? Sigh, I wonder if the lawyers hire people to push for commissions they will make wads of money off of?

and for you ex-parents that missed all the TV shows, here was my kids favorite:

logoTb_fr.jpg
 

Oldgateboatdriver

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Actually, the problem lies with our friendly CBC and Peter Mansbridge. As usual, without knowing what they are talking about, they make statements and claims that are ridiculous of the type "the ship was exactly where the Inuit said it was".

There was no such precision in the Inuit oral history. They knew from it that "in that passage, off that point, not too far from land" a ship had been seen.

This is not new knowledge never used before: Most expeditions that went after Franklin's ships asked the Inuit and usually got the same answer from which they worked, and it did not come to fruition then.

In minehunting, we probably use some of the best high definition sonars there are. We go four or five times over ground in harbour approaches we already know and have mapped, using DGPS for the most precise locating of the area we cleared and still, we only say that it has been cleared - never that it is safe - because even then we could have missed something.

The information provided by the Inuit oral history was useful, but it was nowhere near sufficient. This expedition could have easily turned out a negative result even with the information.
 

jpjohnsn

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SeaKingTacco said:
In what sense is that "nice"?

Is your hatred actually so strong that you cannot see the historical significance of this?

I actually would not care if a (hypothetical) PM Trudeau or PM Mulcair were onstage yesterday- I still would have found this to be a neat story.  But, maybe I am just a simpleton....
As an historical buff, myself, the find is INCREDIBLY exciting.  I was even caught singing Stan Roger's "Northwest Passage" by a co-worker at one point. 

But, and there is a but...

While I give the PM and the search team 10/10 on their triumph, I have to wonder why some programs are being cut to the bone - and even into the bone - in the name of fiscal responsibility and, yet, the PM's hobby is indulged using public funds.  War of 1812 celebrations, retro ranks and names for the CF, searching for the lost Franklin Expedition.  In better times, I'd be, and have been, a staunch defender of, and cheerleader for, this type of thing but I wonder why nearly 200 year-old sunken ships take funding priorty over, say, the current and future RCN.

Now, the search for HMS Terror and Erebus has the side effect of also mapping swaths of the sea floor which may come in handy as the Northwest Passage opens up and we need to assert our sovereignty. And if it was marketed as "This is a sovereignty exercise and, by the way, while we're there will keep an eye out for Franklin's Ships", I'd be all over it.  But photo op after photo op, press release after press release, finding the missing ships is the goal, not the side project and the PM has been front and centre in nearly every pic. 

 
J

jollyjacktar

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Colin P said:
and for you ex-parents that missed all the TV shows, here was my kids favorite:

logoTb_fr.jpg

I was lucky, my kids caught the second coming in the early 90's the "The Thunderbirds" and "Captain Scarlett" both shows from my childhood.  Thank god I missed the "Teletubbies", that would have made me more mental than I already am.

 

GAP

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Ah...but you are not running for office in 2015 and are down in in the polls...... ;)
 

a_majoor

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Most Canadians have no idea about defense issues, sovereignty or even what is happening in the town just down the highway. Trying to "sell" the Franklin expedition on the basis of defense or sovereignty would have elicited a "huh?" at best and a hostile response (spending money on guns instead of butter) at worst.

The Prime Minister is combining multiple objectives in these expeditions (asserting Canadian sovereignty, preparing the RCN for arctic operations, creating and reenforcing a "Canadian" national narrative based on shared history and achievments, winning the next election), so things are not as straightforward as you or I might like, or even apprieciate.
 

jpjohnsn

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Thucydides said:
Most Canadians have no idea about defense issues, sovereignty or even what is happening in the town just down the highway. Trying to "sell" the Franklin expedition on the basis of defense or sovereignty would have elicited a "huh?" at best and a hostile response (spending money on guns instead of butter) at worst.

The Prime Minister is combining multiple objectives in these expeditions (asserting Canadian sovereignty, preparing the RCN for arctic operations, creating and reenforcing a "Canadian" national narrative based on shared history and achievments, winning the next election), so things are not as straightforward as you or I might like, or even apprieciate.
On this, I think you underestimate "most Canadians".  The potential opening of the Northwest Passage to shipping - and how we protect our sovereignty in the area - has been covered enough that I've heard people around me talk about the subject, at some level or another, who normally consider news the boring part before the weather forecast and the latest sports.  A project to map the NWP would, in my opinion anyway, would be an easier sell, politically and for our fiscal future, than would an historical treasure hunt. 

The "Colbert Bump" the PM may get through National Pride at the moment may not linger the next time the public is told there is no money for something and someone points at this and says 'well how come there was money to look for that shipwreck up north, then?' No one will remember more important benefits if they aren't presented.

All I'm saying is that the PM would have been farther ahead to play up the sovereignty and economic benefits of the project up front and reinforce the idea he's a statesman AND bask in the glory of one - and maybe both - of Franklin's ships being found on his watch.  By going for one and not the other, it opens him up to getting bit in the butt later.
 

d_edwards

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Thucydides said:
Most Canadians have no idea about defense issues, sovereignty or even what is happening in the town just down the highway. Trying to "sell" the Franklin expedition on the basis of defense or sovereignty would have elicited a "huh?" at best and a hostile response (spending money on guns instead of butter) at worst.

The Prime Minister is combining multiple objectives in these expeditions (asserting Canadian sovereignty, preparing the RCN for arctic operations, creating and reenforcing a "Canadian" national narrative based on shared history and achievments, winning the next election), so things are not as straightforward as you or I might like, or even apprieciate.

I think your analogy of  this is spot  on. 
 

Kilo_302

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SeaKingTacco said:
In what sense is that "nice"?

Is your hatred actually so strong that you cannot see the historical significance of this?

I actually would not care if a (hypothetical) PM Trudeau or PM Mulcair were onstage yesterday- I still would have found this to be a neat story.  But, maybe I am just a simpleton....

In historical terms this discovery IS somewhat important, as a student of history I can recognize that (though I think it should have been privately funded, as many of these projects are). But in political terms, it's hard to hide the blatant propaganda here, as well as the disconnect with Harper's overall "real" policies. Trumpeting the importance of the North and the role of science in this discovery is all well and good. But then you look at his policies towards both and it's quite apparent this is a stunt and nothing more. When Putin went down in the submersible we all guffawed (rightly so), so how is this any different?

Was this a good use of money? There's a thread on this site that discusses spending money on parties for past wars and honouring veterans versus spending the money on our current forces. It's a similiar situation here. I think spending millions to find a ship all for the purposes of a photo op is ridiculous when that money could have been used to maintain federal funding for Experimental Lakes Area, or other scientific research in the North (which has been cut to the bone). Or better yet, if it's history you're worried about, give some money to museums where the average Canadian can actually see the results of their tax dollars. Let's face it, this discovery is practically irrevelant to most Canadians, and we blew millions on it.  In fact it's importance is directly related to the amount of money the government has spent on messaging. And yes, I DO have certain hatred for Harper. Just as I do for Trudeau and Mulcair. They're politicians ;)


Actually I just ran into an editorial from that Harper bashing bastion of progressive thought, the Globe and Mail, which better says what I was writing above (they even mention ELA):

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/editorials/finding-the-franklin-expedition-finding-science/article20502337/#dashboard/follows/
 

Edward Campbell

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Few political parties poll as assiduously as does the Conservative Party of Canada and fewer still are as ruthless in their analysis. The CPC is, rightly, taken to task for "slicing and dicing" Canadian opinion so that they can micro-target their policies for their own, partisan, political ends. But, all that polling tells them some BIG things, too:

    1. Canadians don't really care about science ~ they want the benefits, but they aren't really interested in whether Canadian government scientists are  "muzzled" or not;

    2. Canadian do "care' about the North. It is a basic, emotional thing, not, again, about policy, not about economics, not even about sovereignty, unless the USA is involved; and

    3. Canadians do not like spending money on national defence.

Those BIG things are pretty common knowledge in the political science world ~ all the polls, by all the parties and all the media outlets tell everyone the same things. They also drive the partisan PR wars. It's why Prime Minister Harper's PR professionals are spinning this story as they are, and it's why Judy Rebick et al are responding the way they do.
 

daftandbarmy

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E.R. Campbell said:
Few political parties poll as assiduously as does the Conservative Party of Canada and fewer still are as ruthless in their analysis. The CPC is, rightly, taken to task for "slicing and dicing" Canadian opinion so that they can micro-target their policies for their own, partisan, political ends. But, all that polling tells them some BIG things, too:

    1. Canadians don't really care about science ~ they want the benefits, but they aren't really interested in whether Canadian government scientists are  "muzzled" or not;

    2. Canadian do "care' about the North. It is a basic, emotional thing, not, again, about policy, not about economics, not even about sovereignty, unless the USA is involved; and

    3. Canadians do not like spending money on national defence.

Those BIG things are pretty common knowledge in the political science world ~ all the polls, by all the parties and all the media outlets tell everyone the same things. They also drive the partisan PR wars. It's why Prime Minister Harper's PR professionals are spinning this story as they are, and it's why Judy Rebick et al are responding the way they do.

How about an Arctic 'Americorps' then? http://www.nationalservice.gov/programs/americorps
 

Oldgateboatdriver

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E.R. Campbell said:
Few political parties poll as assiduously as does the Conservative Party of Canada and fewer still are as ruthless in their analysis. The CPC is, rightly, taken to task for "slicing and dicing" Canadian opinion so that they can micro-target their policies for their own, partisan, political ends. But, all that polling tells them some BIG things, too:

    1. Canadians don't really care about science ~ they want the benefits, but they aren't really interested in whether Canadian government scientists are  "muzzled" or not until some freakish illness comes in from abroad or large scale food poisoning occurs;

    2. Canadian do "care' about the North even though they have no idea what the North is or have even been there. It is a basic, emotional thing, not, again, about policy, not about economics, not even about sovereignty, unless the USA is involved; and

    3. Canadians do not like spending money on national defenceunless…wait, there is no unless on this one.

Those BIG things are pretty common knowledge in the political science world ~ all the polls, by all the parties and all the media outlets tell everyone the same things. They also drive the partisan PR wars. It's why Prime Minister Harper's PR professionals are spinning this story as they are, and it's why Judy Rebick et al are responding the way they do.

TFTFY

And Kilo 302, we didn't spend "millions" on this: One of the MCDV's and a coast guard ship were going up there on sovereignty patrol no matter what. I just wondered, personally, how Mr Harper and his wife enjoyed sharing the captain's cabin on the MCDV: not quite 24 Sussex's standards - and Navy ships have "cooks", not "Chefs de cuisine" ;)
 

chrisf

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Oldgateboatdriver said:
TFTFY

And Kilo 302, we didn't spend "millions" on this: One of the MCDV's and a coast guard ship were going up there on sovereignty patrol no matter what. I just wondered, personally, how Mr Harper and his wife enjoyed sharing the captain's cabin on the MCDV: not quite 24 Sussex's standards - and Navy ships have "cooks", not "Chefs de cuisine" ;)

Probably about as much as he enjoyed staying in the CO's room when he visited CFS Alert... which he appeared to enjoy very much....

Finding the Franklin ship was a bit of a side effect of UNCLOS related mapping of the arctic sea floor, much of it was money being spent anyway.
 

Kilo_302

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Oldgateboatdriver said:
TFTFY

And Kilo 302, we didn't spend "millions" on this: One of the MCDV's and a coast guard ship were going up there on sovereignty patrol no matter what. I just wondered, personally, how Mr Harper and his wife enjoyed sharing the captain's cabin on the MCDV: not quite 24 Sussex's standards - and Navy ships have "cooks", not "Chefs de cuisine" ;)

Right, I'm just going on what the media is saying, a few articles have used the term "millions" specifically for finding lost wrecks. I'm not sure if anyone knows whether or not that's part of the overall UNCLOS mapping mentioned above?

  I guess the point is, given the cuts to everything else science and arctic, Canadians aren't really going to buy this messaging.
 

Oldgateboatdriver

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a Sig Op said:
Probably about as much as he enjoyed staying in the CO's room when he visited CFS Alert... which he appeared to enjoy very much....

Finding the Franklin ship was a bit of a side effect of UNCLOS related mapping of the arctic sea floor, much of it was money being spent anyway.

I don't think that the CO's room at CFS Alert compares to the CO's cabin: An MCDV's CO's cabin is about 3.5 m. by 4 m., within which you have to fit a comfortable chair (the only creature-comfort afforded the CO), two fairly large safes, a work desk with a desk chair, a sink and medicine cabinet, a filing cabinet, a bookshelf, two lockers and a "triple" sofa, which turns into a single bed at night, not to mention all the usable space used up by computers, communication gear and various information displays (such as compass repeaters) for the CO. Either the PM or his wife would have had to climb and sleep in the "Pullman" bed also located there for visiting senior officer.

Personally, I was surprised that he didn't ferry over to the coast guard ship every night.
 
 

Colin Parkinson

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Why let details get in the way of a good rant. I do agree with the criticisms about grand speeches of opening a base and then finally coming out with a much watered down and late alternative. The money being turned back by DND would have easily paid for the basing option they first announced. 
 
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