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GG Spending

SeaKingTacco

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I’m not sure how asking why a meal costs 217$ Is a stupid question. Like I said, I’m ok with it if it’s justified and explained. You honestly can’t say that that catering cost wouldn’t raise an eyebrow.
Call up a certified fight kitchen in Dubai. Ask them how much per meal it is.
 

Navy_Pete

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The original quote of $93k included airport fees, garbage disposal etc etc. The way we report on spending anything is crazy; hard to say what was actually in the $80k. Some genius may have decided to roll the salaries etc of the air crew in for all we know as well as fuel, as those kinds of details are in the cost factors manual for the operation of different equipment.

Honestly unless someone shows an actual invoice for just food I'll have a hard time believing that's not some kind of insane roll up cost estimate, as that's how we roll. Usually why our project costs are so high; we include all kinds of things no one else does.
 

Remius

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They were on a middle east trip, were they not? I actually have no idea which airports they catered at.
The onus is on the people spending that money to account for it, justify it and explain it. If the spending was reasonable given the circumstances (whatever they might be) then I see no issue. People are aware of world wide food inflation and supply chain issues that raise prices. Could that be a reasonable explanation? Or that costs for single aircraft with special one off meal requests are more expensive?

I have no clue. But I know how much that sort of money will buy me in groceries. Before I get scolded for the example, (and yes I know it’s apples and oranges) it’s the first thing most Canadians will do when presented with those numbers.

I don’t see any issues with people and the media questioning how public money is being spent especially at this moment in time. The optics aren’t good, so maybe they should just explain it a bit better.
 

Remius

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The original quote of $93k included airport fees, garbage disposal etc etc. The way we report on spending anything is crazy; hard to say what was actually in the $80k. Some genius may have decided to roll the salaries etc of the air crew in for all we know as well as fuel, as those kinds of details are in the cost factors manual for the operation of different equipment.

Honestly unless someone shows an actual invoice for just food I'll have a hard time believing that's not some kind of insane roll up cost estimate, as that's how we roll. Usually why our project costs are so high; we include all kinds of things no one else does.
Oh, for sure. Then that should be easily explained.
 

Jarnhamar

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17 crew and 29 passengers.
Does that seem like a lot of crew members?
 

Navy_Pete

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Oh, for sure. Then that should be easily explained.
Should be, but we'll probably claim some nebulous security thing, commercial in confidence, etc or otherwise do something to make it difficult.

Honestly though the staff work to answer the ATIs, PA etc will all now blow this $80k out of the water, and still not even come close to the daily bill for parliament so at least the $80k on the GG did something concrete. The GoC will probably just chaulk this up towards the increased defence spending commitment.
 

SeaKingTacco

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The original quote of $93k included airport fees, garbage disposal etc etc. The way we report on spending anything is crazy; hard to say what was actually in the $80k. Some genius may have decided to roll the salaries etc of the air crew in for all we know as well as fuel, as those kinds of details are in the cost factors manual for the operation of different equipment.

Honestly unless someone shows an actual invoice for just food I'll have a hard time believing that's not some kind of insane roll up cost estimate, as that's how we roll. Usually why our project costs are so high; we include all kinds of things no one else does.
Oh good one. I forgot what an expensive nightmare it is to dispose of non-domestic garbage.
 

Navy_Pete

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Oh good one. I forgot what an expensive nightmare it is to dispose of non-domestic garbage.
IIRC a normal bin was something like $1k pre COVID and it all went and got incinerated. I'm sure in some countries that was done properly, in others it probably was just some guy with a fire pit. (Similarly for oily water and sewage I'm sure in a few places they just went around the corner and dumped it in the harbour).

I'd imagine there are probably a lot of 'added costs' for things like additional sanitization and whatever else they can tack on to the meal prep and delivery as well, especially when they see it's some kind of executive class meal. Some are probably legitimate but a lot are just people making an extra buck when they have a captive audience.

People get all wound up about costs without appreciating that even at the best rates things like this cost way more than you would expect, especially when you tack on all the other fees and related administration costs. We worry about nickle and dime things but then will probably spend a million or so in staff time responding to an $80k catering bill.
 

Brad Sallows

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If we don't occasionally spend a million or so in staff time, visibly, so that people know someone is watching, we may very well end up with a greater expenditure on inflated catering bills. We just don't know.
 

Navy_Pete

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If we don't occasionally spend a million or so in staff time, visibly, so that people know someone is watching, we may very well end up with a greater expenditure on inflated catering bills. We just don't know.
The increased oversight on travel costs means that travel costs 2-3 times what it would due to the delays in booking plus the staffing costs. Some oversight is fine, but when things are being triple and quadruple reviewed all the way up to DG levels or higher it just doesn't make any sense. Shouldn't cost thousands of dollars of staff work to get approval for a few hundred dollars for sandwhiches and coffee for a working lunch either.

Things costing more than people think they should doesn't mean there is any corruption or anything, and where we normally use lowest compliant bidder I'm not really sure what people are expecting to happen here.

If people commit fraud, charge them. With the level of bureacracy that is built into the system we would need a lot of travel and hospitality fraud to make up for the extra costs. Especially when everyone is short people, really stupid to have this much oversight on low dollar value items, especially when the people involved are trusted with millions-billions in project funding.
 

lenaitch

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The typical government response to an audit or investigation that uncovers some manner of malfeasance is to create layers and processes intended to prevent it rather than deal with the people actually at fault. It's often not so much the extra layers but the inevitable delay at each step. Too often, bureaucrats, no doubt including senior military staff, who have not worked out 'in the world', seem honestly surprised that something now costs more or simply can no longer be done because of the delay. 'Do what you have to do the complete the mission' has no meaning to the outside world that has their own policies, requirements or deadlines. I can't remember the number of times I ended up spending more money because approval was delayed so long that any discount or deal was lost (or not spending it at all because a window had closed).

When I worked for the provincial government and complained about the bureaucracy, I was often reminded by those who had been seconded to the federal government about how good we actually had it.
 

rmc_wannabe

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The typical government response to an audit or investigation that uncovers some manner of malfeasance is to create layers and processes intended to prevent it rather than deal with the people actually at fault. It's often not so much the extra layers but the inevitable delay at each step. Too often, bureaucrats, no doubt including senior military staff, who have not worked out 'in the world', seem honestly surprised that something now costs more or simply can no longer be done because of the delay. 'Do what you have to do the complete the mission' has no meaning to the outside world that has their own policies, requirements or deadlines. I can't remember the number of times I ended up spending more money because approval was delayed so long that any discount or deal was lost (or not spending it at all because a window had closed).

When I worked for the provincial government and complained about the bureaucracy, I was often reminded by those who had been seconded to the federal government about how good we actually had it.
Zero tolerance is the policy of the lazy; It fixes everything by doing nothing.

Just because one person couldn't be trusted to do the right things, doesn't mean to take away the ability of everyone else to be responsible with it. That goes for everything, from pers admin and entitlements, to DOAs, to just basic adherence to rules and regulations.
 

dapaterson

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There are also timorous staff who refuse to permit subordinate units / formations to exercise authorities, but rather drive nugatory staff work to seek those authorities every time.

This justifies their existence.
 

daftandbarmy

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When I worked for the provincial government and complained about the bureaucracy, I was often reminded by those who had been seconded to the federal government about how good we actually had it.

Can confirm.

The Feds can make the Provincial bureaucracy look like Olympic track stars, but still make them feel bad that 'they're not one of us' ;)
 

Navy_Pete

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Even within the Federal Government there are degrees of bureaucracy; watching the CCG ship projects vs the DND ship projects was like seeing two different worlds.
 

lenaitch

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There are also timorous staff who refuse to permit subordinate units / formations to exercise authorities, but rather drive nugatory staff work to seek those authorities every time.

This justifies their existence.
Most bureaucrats with any kind of authority are more empowered to say 'no' than 'yes'.
 

Brad Sallows

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Things costing more than people think they should doesn't mean there is any corruption or anything, and where we normally use lowest compliant bidder I'm not really sure what people are expecting to happen here.

Sure. Same principle applies to everything government does. Good thing few people look to government to deal with every issue.
 
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