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Great Britain Offers to help Canada defend its Arctic (CBC)

Britain offers Canadian military help to defend the Arctic

Experts say that concerns about sovereignty have made Ottawa reluctant to let allies operate in the region

Murray Brewster - CBC News

Posted: September 24, 2021
Last Updated: 5 Hours Ago

Britain is signalling its interest in working with the Canadian military in the Arctic by offering to take part in cold-weather exercises and bring in some of its more advanced capabilities — such as nuclear-powered submarines — to help with surveillance and defence in the Far North.

In a recent exclusive interview with CBC News, the United Kingdom's top military commander said his country is "keen to co-operate" and learn more about how to survive and fight in a cold, remote setting.

Gen. Sir Nick Carter said Britain would also like to "cooperate in terms of helping Canada do what Canada needs to do as an Arctic country."

More at link:

 

CBH99

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Maybe China isn't the biggest problem:





🍻
I think the difference is that Russia, while it may yearn for better times, doesn’t delude itself with visions of absolute global domination.

It knows it’s a middle power that enjoys the benefits of a huge geography within it’s borders, plenty of natural resources that the world needs, and plenty of ‘pockets’ of ethnic-Russians in countries bordering or nearby.

It also enjoys the luxuries of having just enough expeditionary forces to keep it’s backyard as clean and stable as it can be, and deny the use of those areas by the west.

China, in my opinion, is an entirely different animal. And one far more dangerous, I’d reckon.


- I’m not familiar with the region in question, nor how various international laws would apply to this situation. But could the EU not have secured those same oil & has supplies themselves, or at least part of them?
 

rmc_wannabe

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I think the difference is that Russia, while it may yearn for better times, doesn’t delude itself with visions of absolute global domination.

It knows it’s a middle power that enjoys the benefits of a huge geography within it’s borders, plenty of natural resources that the world needs, and plenty of ‘pockets’ of ethnic-Russians in countries bordering or nearby.

It also enjoys the luxuries of having just enough expeditionary forces to keep it’s backyard as clean and stable as it can be, and deny the use of those areas by the west.

China, in my opinion, is an entirely different animal. And one far more dangerous, I’d reckon.

China and it's populace have been indoctrinated for 70 years that all their moves for power and influence are need to prevent another Century of Humiliation by Western Powers.

Its almost like "Animal Farm" in a sense.

9phgv1TXEkV1t3DuRDF1WR2CA-8=.gif
 

daftandbarmy

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Colin Parkinson

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There is suspicion that the Fentayal problem is China's cold revenge for the opium pushed on it by Great Britain.
 

CBH99

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There is suspicion that the Fentayal problem is China's cold revenge for the opium pushed on it by Great Britain.
I’m not kidding, I had never even heard of the opium wars until about a week ago. I then watched too short but informative documentaries on the basics of what it was and some of the key events.

Couldn’t believe I had never heard of them until now.


(How do we not learn about some of this stuff in school!? I learned some of the same basic facts about Canada for six years in a row… not once did I learn about the opium wars, details of WW2, etc etc.)
 

Colin Parkinson

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Because your teachers never learned and only teach that which is in the curriculum. Even in my day the textbooks were wrong and they went into more detail. Start talking about how First Nations were conducting Slave raids up the Fraser River around 1860's and see heads explode.

History is messy and utterly fascinating to the curious mind.
 

daftandbarmy

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I’m not kidding, I had never even heard of the opium wars until about a week ago. I then watched too short but informative documentaries on the basics of what it was and some of the key events.

Couldn’t believe I had never heard of them until now.


(How do we not learn about some of this stuff in school!? I learned some of the same basic facts about Canada for six years in a row… not once did I learn about the opium wars, details of WW2, etc etc.)

And then there's the connection between the Opium Wars (lost by China) and Chinese immigration to Canada, which is how we built our railroads (with plentiful and cheap Chinese labour) and saved the country, West of Winnipeg, from annexation by the good old US of A by fulfilling the Western territories' Confederation requirements for the railroad.

So, there is a good argument to made that if the Chinese had won the Opium Wars, there would be no Western Canada as we know it today, and we can thank the efforts of Chinese immigrants for making it possible for Canada to now extend from 'Sea to Sea to Sea'.


History of Canada's early Chinese immigrants​


The first wave of Chinese immigrants to arrive in Canada were motivated by various push and pull factors. Negative factors can "push" people to leave their home while positive influences "pull" people towards a particular country.

The push factors, such as floods and wars in China, made it hard for people to grow crops for food, live in safety and peace, or make a living.

Pull factors for Canada were related to the young nation's pace of growth. New settlements and new industries often had a shortage of workers. British Columbia's distance from Europe and eastern North America meant that China was the closest large source of low-cost labour.

Decisions on where to migrate were also shaped by other factors, such as the efforts of labour recruiters, and influence of family and village networks.

For many years, European countries had been moving into China to sell their products. After losing the Opium Wars to Great Britain in 1842 and in 1860, China was forced to open more of its port cities to trade with Europe. When trade moved to these newly opened ports, less cargo passed through the port of Guangzhou. The result was that porters, warehouse hands and boat crews lost their jobs.

After the Opium Wars, a condition of China's surrender was a massive payment to Great Britain, an amount which was one-third of the annual intake of China's treasury. This cost was passed on to the ordinary Chinese citizens who had to pay higher taxes.

 

MarkOttawa

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Looks like, as so often, Mr Brewster was torquing things--RoyalNavy interested in High North up from GIUK Gap plus Norwegian, Barents Seas--to work with CCG:

Royal Navy sailors to get Canadian polar training as part of a new collaborative agreement​


More Royal Navy sailors will be trained in taking ships into challenging polar waters thanks to a new collaborative agreement with the Canadian Coast Guard.​


Its sailors will benefit from Canadian training in navigating through icy waters, breaking sheets of ice where necessary, while Canadian Coast Guard personnel will have operational training opportunities and gain experience with crewless technology with the Royal Navy.

The agreement was signed between the two NATO nations at the Canadian Coast Guard’s (CCG) headquarters in Ottawa by its Commissioner, Mario Pelletier, and Second Sea Lord Vice Admiral Nick Hine.

“I am delighted to sign this agreement that will see the Royal Navy and Canadian Coast Guard work even closer together in the Arctic, sharing and developing our ice experience, as we strive to become ever more interoperable and interchangeable,” said VAdm Hine.

“The Canadian Coast Guard welcomes the opportunity to build on the existing close relationship between Canada and the United Kingdom. Through this Memorandum of Understanding, we will benefit from the Royal Navy’s operational experience and expertise, and we look forward to sharing our skills and knowledge of the Arctic,” said Commissioner Pelletier.



The agreement follows an initiative in early 2020 which saw several watchkeeping officers from HMS Protector, the UK’s sole ice patrol ship, gain valuable experience in ice operations aboard a CCG vessel.

The Canadian Coast Guard maintains a constant presence in Arctic waters during the navigable season, and in 2020 alone its icebreaking fleet collectively sailed the equivalent of nearly five and a half times around the world through the waters of the perilous region.

The Canadians have a large fleet of around 20 icebreaking vessels [bit of a stretch], from hovercraft to heavy and light icebreaking and long endurance ships, to keep marine traffic moving safely through or around ice-covered waters.

Their fleet of icebreakers helps keep Canadian ports open for business year-round, freeing vessels beset in ice, maintaining routes, escorting ships through ice-covered waters and organising convoys in favourable conditions among other responsibilities.

The sharing of the Canadian Coast Guard’s wide experience and expertise will mean British sailors are better-equipped when sailing to the frozen region. In recent years the Royal Navy has demonstrated renewed interest in the Arctic region given its key strategic importance to the security of the UK.

Warships are a regular presence in the region, while Royal Marines train in Norway annually as the UK’s specialists in the cold weather warfare.

HMS Lancaster recently returned from a on a 3,000-mile round-trip through the Norwegian Sea and into the Arctic Circle – the latest Royal Navy vessel to head to the High North over the past few years.

Mark
Ottawa
 

Kirkhill

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I'm no China apologist, but history shows that China did suffer from many years of 'humiliation' by Western powers. And Japan, of course, who killed millions of their citizens e.g., Japanese invasion of Manchuria - Wikipedia

But it was western forces that freed China from the many years of "humiliation" by the Manchurian Qing Dynasty in 1912 after 300 years of subjugation of the Han.

In fact the Han only got a look in between 1300 and 1600 with the Ming Dynasty when they could no longer tolerate the humiliation of being subjugated by the Mongols (1205 to 1368)

So from 1205 to 2021 China has been ruled by the Han for about 270 years, including the CCP years, out of 800. Beyond that they have been subject to Mongol, Manchu, Japanese and Westerners. Although, to be fair, the Westerners didn't subjugate them so much as exploited them.
 

Kirkhill

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Looks like, as so often, Mr Brewster was torquing things--RoyalNavy interested in High North up from GIUK Gap plus Norwegian, Barents Seas--to work with CCG:

The 1987 White Paper was the right answer then and is still a better plan that what we have now.

Things have changed a bit and technology, especially UUV technology, means that perhaps we don't need as many subs.

But perhaps we could also exploit arrangements like British pilots on American carriers and American aircraft on British carriers. NATO E3 Sentries. Canadians as deputies in Norad, Colorado and in the US Army's III Corps. The original First Special Service Force. And even the Five Eyes intelligence sharing.

Let's say that we decided we needed a standing patrol of 2 SSNs and we needed 4 to 6 SSNs to sustain that. How difficult would it be to buy 2 or 3 subs for the Americans, or the Brits, have them commit 2 or 3 of their existing boats to the Canadian patrol and then we supply half the man-power and they supply the other half. Or maybe it is a 3 way split with the Brits, or 4 ways with the Aussies and the Patrol includes the Pacific.

We give them free passage. They recognize Canadian sovereignty over the internal North West Passage.



So many other good ideas ... canned.
 

Happy Guy

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Back when I was in CANOSCOM there was study paper written by a friend of mine about logistical support in the Arctic. The North is a Logistician's nightmare with impossibly long geographic distances, little to no infrastructure on which to rely on, little integral transportation / logistical resources to develop a line of communications and horrible, horrible weather. Building any permanent infrastructure would be costly and there will always the problem of resupply. A refuelling station up north would demand why type of fuel, should we winterize it? How much is enough? Would it get used to justify the cost? How do we maintain fuel quality control? Who would man it? How do we protect it? How do we maintain it? The Grand picture looks nice to order DND and other responsible gov't departments, but once you get into the details you'll quickly understand the requirement for firm guidance from our political masters (who for the most part do not understand Arctic Operations nor do they have capacity to do so). Most politicians do not have much time and their staffs do not have per-requisite skill set to handle complex problems. This is based on my experience in dealing with them. They want the big RED EASY button. They cannot answer the question - what do you want and are you willingly to pay for it?

What do you mean by protecting the North and sovereignty? Is this satisfied by satellites? Do we augment this by some other capability? If yes what? Do we develop some infrastructure and forward deploy supplies? What happens when a cruise ship, this will happen in the next few years, breaks down in the North West Passage? What about a major plan crash (MAJAID)? What about a foreign submarine incursions? What should be our response?

Any operation in the North will cost a tremendous amount of money PERIOD. There will be a need to develop the expertise to work in the north. We will need to work closely with Inuit for their help and not ignore them as we did in the past. That is why every government has expressed the need to protect our Northern sovereignty but when faced with the reality and hand out for money, they quickly become silent.
 

Colin Parkinson

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It's horrendously expensive from a security viewpoint, but when you look at it from a "All of Governments" outlook, it becomes only very expensive. The buildup of infrastructure there does not fit the South's political cycle, therefore it does not get the attention it should. All the stuff we are patting ourselves on the back for doing is about 30 years late. This is a 50 year+ project that makes the NSS look like a child's game. You can talk about new technologies, but fuel, NG and food all require real infrastructure that allows the flow to happen.
 

FJAG

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The first wave of Chinese immigrants to arrive in Canada were motivated by various push and pull factors. Negative factors can "push" people to leave their home while positive influences "pull" people towards a particular country.
One of my friends from Edmonton had framed and hung on his office wall the "Head Tax Certificate" given to his Great (great?) grandfather when he immigrated from China to Canada in the late 1800s and had paid the tax. The tax varied from $50 to $500 over time (the equivalent of two years salary) and was designed to prevent, or at least minimize, Chinese immigration to Canada.

🍻
 

Oldgateboatdriver

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Looks like, as so often, Mr Brewster was torquing things--RoyalNavy interested in High North up from GIUK Gap plus Norwegian, Barents Seas--to work with CCG:

I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but this is just the renewal of a past training agreement. Mr. Brewster is trying (though he doesn't state it because (1) he has no validating info, and (2) he probably knows it would be wrong) to create a false impression a short time after the articles on the UK offering help to Canada in the Arctic, that this would be part of it or that Canada somehow "accepted" the offer.

Nothing is further from the truth: The RN comes here for ice navigation training for its crews on HMS PROTECTOR, which is both the Falkland defense ship and the UK's Antartica sector patrol vessel. That is where they need and use their ice navigation experience.

As they say in police vernacualr: "Nothing to see, keep moving".
 

daftandbarmy

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I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but this is just the renewal of a past training agreement. Mr. Brewster is trying (though he doesn't state it because (1) he has no validating info, and (2) he probably knows it would be wrong) to create a false impression a short time after the articles on the UK offering help to Canada in the Arctic, that this would be part of it or that Canada somehow "accepted" the offer.

Nothing is further from the truth: The RN comes here for ice navigation training for its crews on HMS PROTECTOR, which is both the Falkland defense ship and the UK's Antartica sector patrol vessel. That is where they need and use their ice navigation experience.

As they say in police vernacualr: "Nothing to see, keep moving".

It's probably more of a grand standing effort to show the Russians and Chinese that 'we're a team', or something like that.
 

Kirkhill

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lrpfs-jpg.66666



Frankly, Inuvik would be a better spot than Alert based on those circles.


Published in the Canadian Military Journal then immediately picked up by the US defense news aggregator Real Clear Defense.

We are being worked around.
 

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General Atomics’ MQ-9A Reaper remotely piloted aircraft has reached unprecedented northern latitudes, paving the way for future security and surveillance missions in the Arctic regions, according to the company.

The MQ-9A “Big Wing” configured platform – which has a 79-foot wingspan and 43-hour range – successfully flew past the 78th parallel north for the first time, General Atomics Aeronautical Systems announced in September. The Reaper took off at a company flight and training test center in Grand Forks, North Dakota, Sept. 7, passed over Haig-Thomas Island in the Canadian Arctic and returned Sept. 8.

Not only was the flight one of the longest-range trips ever completed by an MQ-9, it also demonstrated the unmanned aircraft system’s new capabilities for security and surveillance missions in Arctic regions, said C. Mark Brinkley, a General Atomics spokesperson.

“We have now proven that our UAS can operate safely in Arctic regions, over land and sea, where effective command and control and [intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance] data transfer was previously not feasible,” Brinkley said.

The Arctic is an area of increasing strategic importance to the Pentagon, as adversaries China and Russia make military investments in the region.

An American company launched an American aircraft from American soil into the Canadian Arctic. Do they need us to buy them? Operate them? Ask permission to use them?

The Arctic is an area of increasing strategic importance to the Pentagon, as adversaries China and Russia make military investments in the region.

They could just as easily launch from Fairbanks and Thule with no Canadian input.
 
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