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great grandpa possible V.C recipient

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Jonny Boy

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my great grandpa was mentioned in dispatches and this is what the paper we have says. it is signed by winston churchill
now i just found out that he did this during the battle of the Somme. it was near the end of the battle when the germans were trying to push the British back to the beginning.

if you want to know the exact story go to http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24124.195.html
scroll until you reach reply # 201. that is the story

now that i am at home here is exactly what is on the paper

the war of 1914- 1918​
kingsown Scottish borderers​
No. 20415 Pte.B. Chapman, 7th Bn..​
was mentioned in a dispatch from​
General Sir Douglas Haig. G.C.B, K.C.I.E, K.C.V.O, A.D.C.​
dated 13th, November 1916.​
for gallant and distinguished services in the Field.​
I have it in command from the King to record His Majesty's​
high appreciation of the services rendered.​
Winston Churchhill (signature)​
Secretary of State for War​
War Office
Whitehall.S.W.
1st March 1919
 
if you read the story it says that he was recommended for it and possibly would of received it if he had of signed his discharge papers.
 
i am also wondering how rare would a paper like this be. i know it is priceless, but i would like to know the rareness
 
"Mentioned In Despatches" does not necessarily meant that he was recommended for a VC.  It in itself is a Decoration.  It is an Bronze or Silver Oak Leaf worn on the appropriate medal ribbon, depending on what year it was awarded.  Prior to 1994, it was Bronze, after 1994 it was Silver.  Today For Gallantry in Action with The Enemy, Mention In Despatches is a single oak leaf in Silver. For Gallantry Not In Action with the Enemy or Out of the Theatre a Queen's Commendation for Bravery is a spay of laurel leaves in Silver; if for Flying it is a new emblem in Silver representing the Air Corps Albatross.

In his case he would probably have received the Bronze Oak Leafs to put on the Campaign Ribbon for that era.
 
re-pros cool. i don't have the medals. but i am looking into what medals he did have and i want to get re-pro ones to display. i am doing the same with my great grandpa on my dads side. i cant find the efficiency medal (NCO) unissued though. i found one that was issued but it was like $175. if i have to pay that much than that is what i will have to do. i have his minies and 2 ww2 medals and the centennial medal, but i still need 2 ww1 medals 1 ww2 medal and the efficiency medal.

i was always told that my great grandpa was recommended for the VC. that is what he told his sons and what his sons told there kids and what my mom told me. i understand how things like that could be changed over time but i don't know if something as big as the VC would of been added accidental.

i have e-mailed the museum of the kings own and they said they have no information on him,a nd that most of the ww1 documents were destroyed from the bombs in thew 2nd world war.
 
Unfortunately, if he was recommended for the VC it wouldn't be a matter of record, unless the authority making the recommendation could corroborate it. Signing his "discharge papers" would have nothing to do with it, as the decision was(is) in the hands of the Honours Committee which reviews recommendations for decorations. They have been known to "downgrade" decorations if the information they receive doesn't justify the decoration recommended. It would be unlikely that a VC recommendation would be "downgraded" to Mention in Despatches though.

If you have his records from the Archives you can apply to get any missing medals/decorations as long as you can prove they were awarded. You'll have to pay for them though.

Acorn
 
You could always go to this site and try your luck:

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveSearch.asp?WebType=0&Referer=WW1
 
OK thank you.

i think the whole thing with the not signing his dispatch papers is i think they said he was AWOL.
 
Acorn said:
Unfortunately, if he was recommended for the VC it wouldn't be a matter of record, unless the authority making the recommendation could corroborate it. Signing his "discharge papers" would have nothing to do with it, as the decision was(is) in the hands of the Honours Committee which reviews recommendations for decorations. They have been known to "downgrade" decorations if the information they receive doesn't justify the decoration recommended. It would be unlikely that a VC recommendation would be "downgraded" to Mention in Despatches though.

If you have his records from the Archives you can apply to get any missing medals/decorations as long as you can prove they were awarded. You'll have to pay for them though.

Acorn
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't it be made a matter of record?  

It is very likely a recommendation for the VC be downgraded to MiD actually - they were the only two awards to be done posthumously.   None of the others were.   Happened a lot, actually.   If your deed wasn't up to the standards of a VC, and you died, all you qualified for was the MiD.

I have an entire section of my website devoted to Canadian VC nominations; there are copies of a WW II VC nomination on file for Clarence Crockett, in which the VC is scratched out and DCM substituted.   Don't know what record keeping was like in WW I (and if the regimental archives were destroyed, copies would be lost, though the national archives might still have copies), but in WW II these nominations were generally kept.

http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/medals/vc.htm   This is my page on Canadian VC nominations in the Boer War, WW II and Korea.   WW I is harder to research, but I suspect individual battalion histories will yield examples.   The regimental museum of the British regiment in question, or a published history, may make mention of the fact though if records were destroyed in WW II, that would be a spot of bad luck.

From a WW II example (quoted in Dancocks' D-DAY DODGERS) -

Private Cousins should have won the Victoria Cross...He was recommended for it, but for some reason it did not go through...because the lesser medals for which he qualified as a private could not be awarded posthumously, his only recognition came in the form of a mention in despatches.
Click to expand...
 
Michael,

I just took a look at your VC nominations page and feel compelled to comment re Richard Thompson of 2 RCR in South Africa. First, you are absolutely correct re the details of the two incidents for which he received the Queen's Scarf.

However, Thompson was not recommended for the VC as a result of his actions. He did receive a mention in despatches for the second incident. As for the first action, in which he saved Private James Bradshaw, he was charged and received a short confinement to barracks for consuming his emergency ration without authorization by an officer.

Second, Queen Victoria had begun to crochet the first four scarves before she would have heard of Paardeberg. (She also crocheted four scarves for presentation to British regular soldiers. She entrused the distribution of these scarves to her grandson, who was serving as a major in the headquarters of the 2nd Division in the Natal Field Force.)

While you did not mention it, the scarves have no relation to the Victorian Cross and no status as a decoration. After all, the award of gallantry decorations is controlled at a very high level, and certainly would not be delegated to a battalion commander. Furthermore, to be the most distinguished private soldier in a contingent not does imply that one necessarily deserves an award for valour, and certainly not the VC.

Last, The RCR does not hold the original scarf presented to Richard Thompson; it is in the Canadian War Museum.
 
Good info, Old Sweat, I may need to revisit my sources. 

What are your yours? ;D

I'll have to double check where I got the info from - probably the book WE STAND ON GUARD which is understandably brief.  I think I followed up with a look at some RCR references; still possible I got it wrong...will check.  Any suggestions on where to find out more?

 
I wrote an article on the Queen's Scarves which appeared in the RCR publication, The Connecting File, in 2000 on the centenary of Paardeberg. However you can also read the article by Cameron Pulsifer of the Canadian War Museum in Canadian Military Histroy, Volume 6, Number 1, Spring 1997.

There was a Canadian recommended for a VC in the Boer War, who received the DCM instead. DCM. I am referring to Private WA Knisley, who was recommended for the VC at Leliefontein. He was KIA on a second tour in 1902.
 
Old Sweat said:
I wrote an article on the Queen's Scarves which appeared in the RCR publication, The Connecting File, in 2000 on the centenary of Paardeberg. However you can also read the article by Cameron Pulsifer of the Canadian War Museum in Canadian Military Histroy, Volume 6, Number 1, Spring 1997.

There was a Canadian recommended for a VC in the Boer War, who received the DCM instead. DCM. I am referring to Private WA Knisley, who was recommended for the VC at Leliefontein. He was KIA on a second tour in 1902.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the email; the MM wasn't instituted til WW I so a DCM is not unusual for a private soldier, is it?  Lots of DCMs in 1915 to Canadians before the MM came out.  I'll have to add his name - which units was he in, any idea?
 
so could the fact that my great grandpa not signing the dispatch papers have anything to do with the fact that he did not receive it? or was it possible that maybe he was recommended and it never went through for different reasons.  and i am still wondering what is the rareness and value of the paper i have? i really should go and get it appraised incase my parents ever want to insure it.
 
My mistake Michael, I'd forgotten about the posthumous aspect.

My experience with WWI records is that things can be pretty spotty. My great-grandfather received the Military Cross in WWI, and I was unable to find any documentation on that other than the Gazette.

Hutch,

I'm now not sure what you're asking: that two references to "dispatch papers" has me confused.

Acorn
 
Old Sweat said:
There was a Canadian recommended for a VC in the Boer War, who received the DCM instead. DCM. I am referring to Private WA Knisley, who was recommended for the VC at Leliefontein. He was KIA on a second tour in 1902.
Click to expand...

Tpr William A. Knisley was recomended for the VC at the same time as Lt R.E.W. Turner, Lt H.Z.C. Cockburn, and Sgt E.J. Holland.  All four RCDs were recomended for VCs after the Batlle of Leliefontein in South Africa on 7 Nov 1900.  Knisley was awarded the DCM instead.  Lt E.W.B. Morrison of the D Battery RCFA also won a DSO in that battle.
 
Acorn said:
Hutch,

I'm now not sure what you're asking: that two references to "dispatch papers" has me confused.

Acorn
Click to expand...

oops that was a screw up. i didn't mean sign his dispatch papers i meant he didn't sign his discharge papers.
 
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