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"Irregular" / extended working hours

Pusser

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SupersonicMax said:
Having done a lot of duty where I had to sleep on base, we were always given the per diem and fed by the mess hall.

The entitlement is to meals at public expense.  You either get it from the mess (i.e. given a ration card) or you are reimbursed, but you don't get both a free meal at the mess AND per diem.
 

Milhouser911

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I think by "per diem" he means the TD rate, which as per the CFTDI you are absolutely entitled to when ordered to occupy accomodations.  However, the CAF in its wisdom has decreed that "Base duties are not irregular hours, no matter how irregular the hours are".

The lack of a definition of "Irregular hours" is once again the lynch pin to every argument, in either direction. 

211radop:

5.03 — ACCOMMODATION — ADMINISTRATION
(1) (Application) This instruction applies to instruction 5.02 (Accommodation).
(2) (Order To Occupy Quarters Or Commercial Accommodations) An approving authority shall not order a member into quarters or commercial accommodations unless the approving authority determines that it is necessary for the member:
(a) to attend a conference — or seminar, training session, meeting, or public hearing — without interruption; or
(b) to be immediately available — at all times — near the member’s workplace.

5.16 — INCIDENTAL EXPENSE ALLOWANCE
A member — who is entitled under instruction 5.02 (Accommodation) — is entitled to an incidental expense allowance at the rate set out in the NJC Travel Directive for the location where the member was at the start of a day.

5.02 simply lays out selection criteria for accommodations and doesn't add anything to the discussion.

So there it is, in black and white, that you shall not be ordered to occupy quarters unless you're required to "(b) to be immediately available — at all times — near the member’s workplace", but the leadership has decided that despite the fact that this policy ONLY applies to those working irregular hours, as per 5.01

Subject to Chapter 3 (Application of CFTDTI), this Chapter applies to a member who is:
(b) ordered by an approving authority to work — or to be immediately available for work — during irregular hours inside the member’s place of duty.

that this does not constitute irregular hours and that you are not entitled to incidentals when ordered into shacks.  This directly contradicts itself, but nobody seems to give a fuck.

Someone needs to grieve this and have it resolved, because IMO a decree that "base duty is NOT irregular hours" is invalid because if it were true, they would not be able to order you to occupy shacks.

Someone is wrong, and has been wrong for a very long time.

Milhouse


 

Milhouser911

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Bumping this back up in the hopes of getting some more eyes on it - memo was rejected, NOI to grieve was responded to with "Go ahead and grieve it" (not returned, no note from the CO, etc, as the grievance policy manual states are required), just a verbal "f*ck off".

Milhouse
 

ballz

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Your notice of intent to grieve should be attached to your grievance.. if the CO won't minute it and send it back, make sure you include that information in your grievance.

The whole thing is a joke.
 

donaldk

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Milhouser911 said:
Bumping this back up in the hopes of getting some more eyes on it - memo was rejected, NOI to grieve was responded to with "Go ahead and grieve it" (not returned, no note from the CO, etc, as the grievance policy manual states are required), just a verbal "**** off".

Milhouse

Contact the DGCFGA at the following to register the grievance, at toll free 1-866-474-3867, commercial 613-944-5549, CSN 944-5549 or by email to dgcfga@forces.gc.ca .  DGCFGA will ask for the synopsis (ie. does it require referral to FA? - yours will) followed by giving you a file number.  CO's are not allowed to squat on a RoG and they have reporting guidelines (not sure of CA has a report for RoGs at P Res units fed by the RSSO/Adjts, NAVRES definitely does that is fed by their NRD SO Admins).  Hope your redress succeeds... keep the thread updated as many eyes are watching

P.S. the 'irregular working hours' topic isn't unique to your RSS - I am going about it a different way as I find the RoG process doesn't fix establishment issues. MARPAC Formation Review is currently analyzing input received last week from all 24 NRD's RSS/FTS organizations under the guise of "Naval Reserve Organization and Establishment" questionnaire and the RUMINT back down is that feedback (240+ responses) constitutes a well burning dumpster fire that a  :panic: roadshow is being stood up ( :rofl: - doesn't take a genius to figure out why). 

:trainwreck:
 

Furniture

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My section is currently going through the process to have meals authorized at public expense because of our hours. When I get the memo, and minutes back I will PM the details to the OP for his use.

If it's reasonable I'll add the details to this forum.
 
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Hey there,

I've tried to do some research online and on this website, and I can't find anything that states the maximum number of hours a member can work in a day with or without compensation. Basically, my Sgt has it in his head right now that he can have me work 20 hours a day, 5 days a week because "We're in the Army". I'm a Navy guy, working at an Army unit (in Garrison) and this seems absolutely outrageous to me. Is there a policy (CFAO, QR&O, DAOD, etc.) that states how many hours a member can be forced to work in a day for non-operational reasons?

Thanks.
 

AbdullahD

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This link may be of some help..

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/programs/employment-standards/federal-standards/work-hours.html

Check out the hours of work pamphlet on there too... I'd suspect federal law applies to you guys, when your not in a theatre of war...

I am interested in how many hours you guys can be forced to work and under what stipulations.

Abdullah
 

PPCLI Guy

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This is not McDonald.  Work until the work is done.  Then come to work, and do work again...until the work is done.  WTF dude?
 

mariomike

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AbdullahD said:
I am interested in how many hours you guys can be forced to work and under what stipulations.

Saw this for drivers,

CountDC said:
A-LM-158-005/AG-001 - TRANSPORTATION MANUAL

HOURS OF WORK
66. The National Safety Code (NSC) for motor carriers is designed to establish a comprehensive code of
minimum performance standards for the safe operation of commercial vehicles. The Code applies to all persons
responsible for the operation of commercial vehicles on the road, including trucks, buses, tractors and trailers.
67. DND operators of commercial vehicles will maintain logbooks and adhere to DND regulations regarding
hours of work unless an operational necessity dictates otherwise. In cases where an operational necessity exists,
a Commander of a Command, on the advice of the Command TA can approve exceptions to the hours of work
regulations.
68. DND hours of work regulations are detailed in TD 527.

A-LM-158-005/AG-001
2
(TD 527)
Serial Regulated Operation Time
1 Maximum Unbroken Driving Period 4-1/2 h
2 Maximum Daily Driving Time 13 h
3 Maximum Daily Duty Time 14 h
4 Minimum Breaks after 4-1/2 h driving or breaks of at least 15 minutes.
Within or immediately after 4-1/2 h driving that together total not less than
45 min
5 Daily Rest Period - 8 consecutive hours of off-duty time. 8 h
6 Maximum Daily Driving/Duty Time Special Purpose MSE (SNIC) 12 h
7 Maximum Daily Driving/Duty Time when a vehicle is carrying dangerous goods 8 h
NOTES
1. Unbroken Driving Period – the time spent operating the vehicle without a break.
2. Driving Time – the time spent at the driving controls of a vehicle with the engine running.
3. Duty Time – the total time covers all time spent on duty actually driving or servicing
vehicles, loading, unloading or carrying out other work or “on duty” activity (e.g., mandatory
sports or training).

4. Breaks – means any uninterrupted period during a duty period, which the driver does not
count towards the calculation of the maximum daily duty period.
5. Daily Rest Period – consecutive period in which a driver is not on duty.
6. Daily Driving/Duty Time (SNIC) – total period to include vehicle inspection and operating.
7. When a vehicle carrying dangerous goods is dispatched on an off-base trip of more
than eight hours duration, two qualified drivers must be assigned

6. Routine Standards. Unless given direction by his Commanding Officer (CO) or Designated Officer, no
driver of any vehicle is to drive continuously for more than 4-1/2 hours without a break away from the vehicle. No
driver can drive more than 13 hours or be on duty for more than 14 hours a day, without first taking a minimum of
8 consecutive hours off duty.

14 hours. Not bad. It was 16 hours where I used to work.

Note: "In cases where an operational necessity exists, a Commander of a Command, on the advice of the Command TA can approve exceptions to the hours of work regulations."
 

SupersonicMax

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My crew day can go to 16 hours when I am flying with 12 hours of rest thereafter.  I have done that several time at home and almost constantly deployed.  The normal duty day is 8 hours however there are circumstances where you could be asked to work longer hours.  You CoC can provide you with time off when appropriate to compensate for some of the overtime worked but it is not required to do so. 
 

MJP

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Halifax_Sailor said:
Hey there,

I've tried to do some research online and on this website, and I can't find anything that states the maximum number of hours a member can work in a day with or without compensation. Basically, my Sgt has it in his head right now that he can have me work 20 hours a day, 5 days a week because "We're in the Army". I'm a Navy guy, working at an Army unit (in Garrison) and this seems absolutely outrageous to me. Is there a policy (CFAO, QR&O, DAOD, etc.) that states how many hours a member can be forced to work in a day for non-operational reasons?

Thanks.

You haven't really given any context but long hours or irregular hours can be part of the job.  It isn't suppose to be the norm but if things need to get done then we stay and do them.  That said normal routine work is generally not an imperative to stay longer hours.
 

garb811

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MJP said:
You haven't really given any context...
Exactly, have you been ordered to work these hours or is this a result of a conversation where the Sgt was making a point, winding you up etc?

If you haven't done so, check your unit's Standing Orders and/or Routine Orders. Most have the "regular" working hours while in Garrison in there, can make it easier to prove a AWOL charge in many cases. As others have noted, that doesn't mean those are the only hours you may be working though.
 

Loachman

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PPCLI Guy said:
This is not McDonald.  Work until the work is done.  Then come to work, and do work again...until the work is done.  WTF dude?

How about family and general quality-of-life factors and humane treatment of subordinates?

It depends, though, upon the reasons for and duration of this. Is there a valid reason, and is this for short duration, or is it every week until one party gets posted, quits, or breaks down/burns out?
 

AbdullahD

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Loachman said:
How about family and general quality-of-life factors and humane treatment of subordinates?

It depends, though, upon the reasons for and duration of this. Is there a valid reason, and is this for short duration, or is it every week until one party gets posted, quits, or breaks down/burns out?

👍👍

I can't agree more, If the CAF has a recruiting problem and has the mentality of "this isn't mcdonalds, do your job and quit ******"... I'll tell you right now 150k/yr isn't enough cash to keep people.

This ain't 100 years ago. Also a lot of context is missing too.
Abdullah

 

mariomike

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AbdullahD said:
This ain't 100 years ago.

Ford brought in the 40-hour week back when they were making Model - T's.

 

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Halifax Tar

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I would be interested to know what your CO has to say about your Sgts "leadership methods".

I think we can recognize that the regular force technically on duty 24/7 and as such can be employed in that manner.

But if I was you, I would check your units ROs.  I know ours lists the general working hours.  And, while alongside in daily routine, anything over that needs more clearance/approval than a Sgt/POs prerogative. 
 

Jarnhamar

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I bet the average mcdonalds employee works harder than the average caf member. Smoke breaks when you feel like it, physio and getting your car fixed during work hours (it happens) doesn't jive at places like mcdonalds.


We're on duty 24/7 but it's disingenuous to think it's acceptable to make members work 5am to 11pm weeks or months at a time if they're not on some type of exercise or military manoeuvres.


I feel like there's some hyperbole in Halifax sailors post however, maybe not. I just dealt with an issue where a unit was blatantly ignoring the rules about drivers and sleep. Happens a lot.


I thought I originally read something here about this guy (op) going to work for an hour/couple hours, leaving for home then being told to come back again. Was that a different guy?
 

Remius

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Context is missing.

When I worked at a CFRC we were warned that our hours would be different.  We could be working late and on weekends.  We had a large AOR and required lots of travel early and late.  The CO did everything he could to ensure we all worked essentially 40 hour weeks and we were given CTO on a 1 for 1 basis as much as possible.  Also not counting the occasional short day we were given to help out with that.  So some days it could be 12 hours or more.

I've also found that some non army RSS posted to army reserve units (and mostly in the BOR) had issues with working that one night a week when the unit paraded and sometimes had to be "told" how it is but that CTO would be granted as much as possible to offset that.  CTO never fully made up for the time I put in as an ARQMS but that was the nature of the job.  But with block leave, short days and CTO, I didn't have much to complain about.

Things will vary from place to place but more detail about what the poster's situation would help frame a better answer from the forum.
 
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