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Just How Much "infantry work" in the artillery?

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Crazy_Eyes

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Hey Guys, Hasn't been any discussion around here for awhile, so I got a question for you gunners, or other artillery types out there, just how much of the artillery's role is related to the infantry? or another way to ask I guess is how much infantry type stuff is actually done by the artillery?
 

slickguy1

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Crazy_Eyes said:
Hey Guys, Hasn't been any discussion around here for awhile, so I got a question for you gunners, or other artillery types out there, just how much of the artillery's role is related to the infantry? or another way to ask I guess is how much infantry type stuff is actually done by the artillery?

The role of the artillery is: The role of the field artillery is to assist in the defeat of the enemy with indirect fire as part of the all-arms battle.

The field artillery consists of: . gun, rocket, and missile units that provide surfaceto-surface fire support for the field force; and locating field artillery and equipment that provide
target acquisition, combat surveillance, and artillery intelligence.

As you can likely tell most of that isn't even close to infantry related. More or less, the artillery is in support of infantry.

Gunners / Artillerymen / women do some infantry related stuff: wear camouflage, sometimes dig trenches, occasionally woodsclearing patrols (arty version of finding close enemy) and using most of the same rifles and kit. Gunners are responsible for defence of the gun position and therefore, do use weapons on occasion as the infantry would.
 

The Bat

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From my point of view on your question... we do alot of Infantry work and it starts from getting to the Gun Postion to employing in a Gun Postion. and also while in Afganistan we walk in the same river beds and climb the same mountains as The Infantry Guy did. so i think we do alot of Infantry Work in the Artillery.. UBIQUE :rocket:
 

FOO TECH G11

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Damn right Rocky 31

We do the same amount of infantry work if not more in the OP's. There are 2 OP's normally to each BG and at a minimum 3 companies for that BG. Each time a company goes out, a OP must go with them to be there fire support. Also we currently have 6 OP Parties supporting 2 Infantry BN's and a Armoured (?) Sqn here in Petawawa so we are always gone or out in the field doing the Combat Team stuff. Then we come back and have to go out with our respective batteries to do battery then regimental level exercises.

So, as for what slick guy thinks he might know about the guns, take it from the gunners on the front line with the infantry and armoured, we do the same amount, if not more of the infantry type stuff.

Ubique
 

IPC10

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Just interested to hear your guys views after reading FOO TECH G11 quote:

     "gunners on the front line with the infantry and armoured, we do the same amount, if not more of the infantry type stuff."

What exactly do you consider do "more" of the infantry stuff?   More than who?

I also find it amusing to read the comments about how people join the US Army/USMC just to fire mortars.   I have been told stories how 'back in the day' even the most immature jumper on an Inf QL 4 mortarman course would break into big grins the first time he fired a bedding in mission....

Of course the US Army has also undergone issues regarding whether Infantry types or Arty types should man the tubes in an Infantry Bn.  

For what it's worth I think that all gunners should be properly trained up on the guns â “ be it C3 How or LG 1.   Then its just a matter of a simple conversion course to fire the mortars.   I mean everyone else is doing the same jobs on the gun line.
 

FOO TECH G11

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AS in more I meant that we do what the Infantry and Armour do, then we have to go do our own thing as well.  :salute:
 

Gun Shy

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historically, in the 90's the Arty would focus as much tiem and effort to do soldier skills aka (inf), whether supplying an Inf Pl for a Inf Bn for Exercise. Monted / dismounted enemy force for Bdg Ex. Mortar Gp for UN / SFOR Ops /Op Athena Roto 1. Arty Regt deployed to Cyprus (aka Inf Bn Task). Gunners have routinely has perfromed several roles as Inf. One Artymn even during Op Athena was Deployed as a Sniper comd. So yes the Arty has consistently performed the duties of infanteers whether home or abroad.
 

IPC10

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Not to degrade the importance of an operational tour, but I do not think that the Guns who went to Cyprus were realistically expected to be able to act as infantry in battle.   I do underestand that there have been individual augmentation throughout various Canadian deployments - I believe there was a gunner employed as a sniper on Op APOLLO for a bit.  

I would like to say the fact remains, but one thing we should be considering is that the Austrailian and American Armies have had 'issues' with the employment of gunners in infantry combat roles.   Is this a lesson that we have to learn through some sort of mission failure?   (There is a whole thread around here on the 507th Maint Coy and the lessons from that)  Wecould learn from their lessons learned, fine for peacekeeping , bloody bad idea for a shooting war.   Why waste the time of training someone to a level of excellence in a specific job then have them employed in another MOC? I mean think of all the gunners who would jump up and yell bloody murder if someone proposed that you took an infantry mortar platoon - gave them an eight day conversion course on the LG 1 - and sent them on a tour as gunners.   My prespective on the Arty now getting into some many infantry roles is based on two issues:

1.     that there are not enough Infantry for the taskings allocated; and
2.     politics - get the guns on tours.

So yes, the guns have to be able to act in an individual combat mindset; everyone days as the Force Empoyment Concept identifies.   But we need them employed in their jobs.   Did the guns provide Mortar Platoons for SFOR?   Yeap.   Did the guns provide a Bty for SFOR? Yeap.   (But it seems when they did this the mortars were 031).   Did the guns provide troops for mortars in APOLLO? Yeap (But maybe 105's might have worked better).  Why are we employing gunners as infantry soldiers - not enough infantry. 
 

1feral1

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In the regiment I belong to, we do plenty of infantry stuff, which everything from recces to patroling. digging holes, local defence, and the rest of it. Plus all the Artillery stuff too.

Never a dull moment.  :-\

Cheers,

Wes
 

1feral1

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Meanwhile, back at the Ech.....   those bloody prefire checks ;D

Thats me on the right.


Cheers,


Wes
 

elscotto937

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IPC10, You know that the most of us do not want infantry jobs, and I think that you are on line with the reasons why other troops are lined up on infantry positions. The sum total is that in the Canadian scheme of operational planning the infantry are not the close with and destroy the enemy guys, but rather the GD of the CF. And as you know GD duties can be filled by anyone. So I guess I agree with your assessment.

SlickGuy, I'm curious about your experience with combined arms operations, because the FOO parties exist, live and fight with the supported arm. Yes it is true that we are not the ones clearing the trenches and bayonetting the enemy. Because, there are trained infantry to do that, if I was firing my weapon then there are several combat mulitipliers that are LOB.
 

River Fenix

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  Reading the original post, im not quite sure I understand what you're referring to when you mean the Infantry stuff. If you mean, "do we use the same weapons", yes and no. We (the Arty) use C7s, C9s (and to a lesser extent C6s). In addition we use our own Guns... but thats a Given.

Did you mean "do we undergo the same training?". Well, to become even the lower than spit Private untrained on his MOC, you will have passed your SQ (Soldier Qualification) with is, to dumb it down, Section Attacks, Grenades and C9/C6. So.. I dont see any difference between infantry and Arty there. So if the Artillery guys are trained to the same level of the Infantry at That point.. then Why shouldnt the Artillery guys be able to do the same job as the Infantry guys.. when all that is required is that we be able to operate the same weapons.. and provide the same level of defence (or what-not). Granted, on the BIQ the infrantry guy will go into much more depth in certain areas... the Map & compass stuff, and the Basic military stuff will be/is present in all of the combat arms.

As someone mentioned above - Arty guys arent being sent out to do Infantry specific jobs (in the same way an Arty guy wouldnt be asked to clear a minefield), they are being sent out to do GDs. (For the most part).

-River
 

ArmyRick

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I am infantry but bear with me..
All members of the army these days must complete the SQ wich includes C7, C9, C6 and Frag Grenade, field craft, section offensive, aptrolling and defensive tactics. This is the way the army is going. Everyone is a soldier first and then your trade second..
 

HollywoodHitman

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Rick...

You're right......Now a question to the others.......

How is it possible to be more infantry than the infantry? Would it be possible to say that the infantry could me more artillery than the artillery? I'm not sure. You guys do your bit, we do ours, but as Rick said, we're all soldiers first, our trade second. I am reasonably sure that our various trades employ tactics that the other is not trained in or experienced enough to do.

The infantry generally IS the GD of the army, but lets not diminish the work that each of the trades do. Several KM's of section attacks all day and then a few days of nonstop FIBUA anyone? Not everyone is cut out for it.

TM
 

Observer23

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I am going to step this in a different direction.   On deployment in Bosnia, gunners were employed in the same manner as the Infantry Battalion.   We had our own camp, patrol areas, and specific information gathering tasks.   We carried out the same weapons and FIBUA rehearsals as our infantry neighbours.   We were even employed like a company minus in a cordon and search.   This had everything from the Armour Recce guys observing the target, the sappers clearing the doors for mines and we the gunners storming the facility (we even had our own sniff dogs).  

When it came for NATO to flex its arms we rolled/flew out of our camp with howitzers and ammunition at the ready.   We were busy in a good way.   It doesn't make any sense to have a battery of manpower waiting by the phone, ready to pounce when there is so much work to do just outside the gate.

Sun Tzu teaches that idle soldiers are like a sword that becomes dull due to like of use.   Employing us on patrols allowed us to practice a wide range of basic soldier skills while keeping us in radio range for a call for guns.   In this mission, yes we did do a lot of the same tasks as the infantry however our primary purpose was still the guns.

In lower intensity conflicts it makes total sense to employ the gunners in such as manner as we have our networks and echelons already established to support ourselves.   The greater the intensity though, may reduce the opportunities for gunners to function outside their primary mission of manning the guns.
 

Kirkhill

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Gunners as the 4th Rifle company in a Battle Group on Stability Ops - just equipped with some REALLY long range support weapons in place of the short range weapons of the  3 Infantry companies

Add a Recce squadron,  a Combat Team of Dragoons and a Squadron of Engineers and you are good to go.
 

atticus

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IPC10 said:
Of course the US Army has also undergone issues regarding whether Infantry types or Arty types should man the tubes in an Infantry Bn.  

For what it's worth I think that all gunners should be properly trained up on the guns â “ be it C3 How or LG 1.   Then its just a matter of a simple conversion course to fire the mortars.   I mean everyone else is doing the same jobs on the gun line.

There is talk (or was) of having the gunners take the mortars away from the infantry in the CF. I remember about a year to two years ago my battery having a big talk about it all. As for gunners doing the infantry thing, sometimes there would be ex's where I would only do the infantry thing, dig trench's, practice section attacks, it was really enforced that we knew it well. When you join up they tell you that the secondary roll of the arty is infantry (on those papers about the job).
 

SHELLDRAKE!!

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IMHO there are those on this thread that for whatever reason, feel insecure about their trade and wish to play the "my trade is better than yours" game. The fact remains, we all started from the same basic training and progressed into our own specialties.We are all soldiers who do as we are told and should the CF go into an actual war, one trade will not survive without the others.We could argue that we need only infantry because of current terrorist threats.Or maybee only artillery because it is the most demoralizing form of warfare.Howabout only having a navy since two thirds of the earths surface is covered in water.The fact is we are who we are through working together. :cdn:
 

ArmyRick

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atticus, for your info, all 81mm mortars are now handled by arty
 

atticus

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ArmyRick said:
atticus, for your info, all 81mm mortars are now handled by arty

Wow, I haven't been away for that long... Is that reg or prim reserve? My battery hasn't even touched them.
 
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