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Quirky

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If we did an audit and I found out a bunch of NCMs from one of my sections had a bunch of leave unused after Christmas, I wouldn't so much be disappointed in those members, but I would be having a stern chat with their PO1 and Lt(N) about proper personnel management, especially considering I would have already instituted a system and laid out expectations at the beginning of the year.

So if a bunch of NCMs didn't follow the expectations given to them at the beginning of the year, it's their managers fault for not holding their hands? You do realize that this type of attitude of deflecting responsibility only happens in the CAF right? When these NCMs go out in the real world, no one is going to hold their hand and sure as hell their bosses won't care how much time off they take. This type of attitude doesn't help people learn how to manage themselves and their lives and it's why they are lost once the uniform is handed in. The CAF is essentially more and more of an adult daycare with zero accountability on the individual.

I am long retired however the Regulations and Orders state that your troops are entitled to leave.

Can't give troops leave if they never request it.

thread split lol?
 

Lumber

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So if a bunch of NCMs didn't follow the expectations given to them at the beginning of the year, it's their managers fault for not holding their hands? You do realize that this type of attitude of deflecting responsibility only happens in the CAF right? When these NCMs go out in the real world, no one is going to hold their hand and sure as hell their bosses won't care how much time off they take. This type of attitude doesn't help people learn how to manage themselves and their lives and it's why they are lost once the uniform is handed in. The CAF is essentially more and more of an adult daycare with zero accountability on the individual.
The troops are required to submit a leave plan, or if you unit doesn't require a leave plan, to submit a sufficient number of leave requests in order to use up their leave by years end.

It is the responsibility of the leadership to ensure this happens, and that appropriate measures/steps/policies are created and enforced that enable the troops to take leave.

I don't think you get what is so asinine about your positions; I agree that if you set the expectation to the troops that they will manage their leave and submit leave passes, that they should be help accountable for that. However, as a leader, you cannot absolve yourself of your own responsibility to properly manage and stay on top of your troops. If I asked one of my POs why x and y were never done on time, and their response was "Well it's not my fault, that's the S1 and MS's specific task, and they know it. They were lazy and never bothered to do it. It's their fault", That wouldn't be an acceptable excuse. It's not solely on the S1 and MS, that's on their bosses as well.
 

PuckChaser

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CAF: We have a retention and recruitment problem, how do we fix it?

Quirky: No more special and short leave to force people to work more.

Oh Brother Facepalm GIF by reactionseditor
 

Jarnhamar

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The next logical step after getting soldiers to submit a leave plan is to get them to submit leave passes IAW their leave plan and account for all 20/25 days.

Then when someone has a change of plans and asks to change their leave we can give them a hard time for not planning ahead and causing extra administrative work.

Make sure to submit a memo too.

P.s -leave cancelation request denied, sucka.
 

OldSolduer

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The next logical step after getting soldiers to submit a leave plan is to get them to submit leave passes IAW their leave plan and account for all 20/25 days.

Then when someone has a change of plans and asks to change their leave we can give them a hard time for not planning ahead and causing extra administrative work.

Make sure to submit a memo too.

P.s -leave cancelation request denied, sucka.
Yup - we had a soldier who wanted one day annual leave and had to submit a memo which was denied. "Because your request falls outside block leave times your request is denied" or words to that effect.
And we wonder why the retention issue is so bad.
 

Furniture

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So if a bunch of NCMs didn't follow the expectations given to them at the beginning of the year, it's their managers fault for not holding their hands?
That's part of the job of supervising, managing, and leading your personnel. If people didn't require supervision, supervisors wouldn't exist.

When these NCMs go out in the real world, no one is going to hold their hand and sure as hell their bosses won't care how much time off they take.
I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty confident private sector employers expect their people to follow company policy, and if that policy is to use all of their vacation days, then managers will be expected to ensure their people comply with the policy.
 

Eaglelord17

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The next logical step after getting soldiers to submit a leave plan is to get them to submit leave passes IAW their leave plan and account for all 20/25 days.

Then when someone has a change of plans and asks to change their leave we can give them a hard time for not planning ahead and causing extra administrative work.

Make sure to submit a memo too.

P.s -leave cancelation request denied, sucka.
Meh, many civilian workplaces have much stricter rules than that.

For example I have to book my vacation for the next year by the end of December. It is booked by seniority, so by time the available vacation times hit me down at the bottom there isn't much of anything left. If I want to change it, that is after everyone else has booked and it is even more restricted than what it was when I first booked. So unless it happens to be a extremely unpopular time I wish to rebook to it isn't happening. 20-25 days off would also be nice as most are on two weeks paid holidays with 3 weeks after 5 years and that's it for many. Mine can get up to 7 weeks off after 25 years but that is also the exception for civilian workplaces not the standard.
 

Furniture

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Meh, many civilian workplaces have much stricter rules than that.

For example I have to book my vacation for the next year by the end of December. It is booked by seniority, so by time the available vacation times hit me down at the bottom there isn't much of anything left. If I want to change it, that is after everyone else has booked and it is even more restricted than what it was when I first booked. So unless it happens to be a extremely unpopular time I wish to rebook to it isn't happening. 20-25 days off would also be nice as most are on two weeks paid holidays with 3 weeks after 5 years and that's it for many. Mine can get up to 7 weeks off after 25 years but that is also the exception for civilian workplaces not the standard.
True, but many also offer OT, bonuses, and other incentives to keep people around to put up with annoying things like crappy leave policy.
 

Navy_Pete

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Can't believe someone is complaining about a few days of short and special on xmas. It's probably the only reasonable leave block most of the CAF actually pays attention to. I can't get people to stop setting up meetings or expecting me to do things while I'm on leave in the summer when they know there wasn't anyone to cover it and keep calling me for non-emergencies.
 

Eaglelord17

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True, but many also offer OT, bonuses, and other incentives to keep people around to put up with annoying things like crappy leave policy.
The CAF actually offers a lot, it just takes a lot.

The Pension for the CAF is substantially better than basically anywhere else. Moving benefits are also extremely nice. Pay isn't bad all things considered. Sea duty/Land duty/Aircrew allowance. PLD. Etc.

Better vacation/leave than most jobs, yes it might not be exactly when you want it but my point is civvy side it usually isn't right where you want it either unless it is some weird time of year no one else wants. By time it got to me in my civilian job this year the only summer vacation available was in May or September. I likely won't get a week off in the middle of the summer for at least another 10 years. That's part of life, but I wish I had 20-25 days off plus all the other short days and extras they add on.

We all obviously know the downsides, but there is a lot of good things that the CAF has in its favour which we don't realize necessarily because for many of us it was one of our first jobs and we lack that perspective of the outside world.
 

dimsum

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Cut the specials and shorts and we will have no issues with people "burning leave" at the end of the year, if that's the issue.

Each holiday period, there are 2-3 specials and 4 Short. Most folks don't even ask for the other 20 Short that can request.

I don't think cutting 7 days is going to stop people burning leave.
 

brihard

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You do realize that this type of attitude of deflecting responsibility only happens in the CAF right? When these NCMs go out in the real world, no one is going to hold their hand and sure as hell their bosses won't care how much time off they take.

This is a couple times now you’ve talked about how troops (who you infantilize) would fare in the ‘real world’. In a thread with several people who are no longer CAF members. And after telling us all not too long ago that you’re riding it out a few more years for a pension.

I don’t think you’re a credible judge of who would and wouldn’t make it on the outside.
 

SupersonicMax

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Each holiday period, there are 2-3 specials and 4 Short. Most folks don't even ask for the other 20 Short that can request.

I don't think cutting 7 days is going to stop people burning leave.
My take on short leave (other than religious/spiritual observance) is that you don’t ask for it: the CoC will recommend short leave to the CO, or the CO will give you short to reward people for exemplary work, for working unusually long hours, or to tend to family-related obligations (although I encourage supervisors to deal with those in a more informal manner, such as providing flexible work arrangements around those obligations).
 

Jarnhamar

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Meh, many civilian workplaces have much stricter rules than that.

I don't know how fair that comparison is though. Think of the bigger picture.

Civilian workplaces don't:
-call you at 5am and tell you to be at work for 6. Got kids? Drop em off at a neighbor's.
-order you to stay late after work, use your emergency family care plan to get your kids.
-tell you you're being sent across the country for 3 months with a weeks notice.
-cancel your vacation last minute and jerk you around if you try and get compensated for canceled airfare or hotels.
-have the ability to put you in jail if you don't show up for work.
-force multiple jobs on you and make you work at a higher-ranked position without compensation.

I also don't think your civilian work has ever ordered you to pick up cigarette butts, garbage, or branches around your building.

No other workplace in Canada has the same control over its employees that the CAF does. Vacation days are on a different level for CAF members IMO.
 

Quirky

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We all obviously know the downsides, but there is a lot of good things that the CAF has in its favour which we don't realize necessarily because for many of us it was one of our first jobs and we lack that perspective of the outside world.

Ding ding ding.

I don’t think you’re a credible judge of who would and wouldn’t make it on the outside.

Wrong. Too many administrative headaches left lingering around the CAF who don’t offer anything. They are liabilities who need their hands held and the great workers need to pick up their slack on a constant basis. These great workers burn out and release because why bother making the same money as the lowest performer. Can’t fire them unfortunately.

On the leave front, our unit lays out the FY plan quite clearly, with leave blocks and weeks where you’re likely needed. That still leaves you with over 200 days in the year to pick from. No one is ever denied leave, zero excuses. The beauty with PACE is the ability to leave notes on those who didn’t plan their leave as per unit direction in April.
 

Furniture

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On the leave front, our unit lays out the FY plan quite clearly, with leave blocks and weeks where you’re likely needed. That still leaves you with over 200 days in the year to pick from. No one is ever denied leave, zero excuses. The beauty with PACE is the ability to leave notes on those who didn’t plan their leave as per unit direction in April.
You could have put that in a PDR...
 

PPCLI Guy

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Ding ding ding.



Wrong. Too many administrative headaches left lingering around the CAF who don’t offer anything. They are liabilities who need their hands held and the great workers need to pick up their slack on a constant basis. These great workers burn out and release because why bother making the same money as the lowest performer. Can’t fire them unfortunately.

On the leave front, our unit lays out the FY plan quite clearly, with leave blocks and weeks where you’re likely needed. That still leaves you with over 200 days in the year to pick from. No one is ever denied leave, zero excuses. The beauty with PACE is the ability to leave notes on those who didn’t plan their leave as per unit direction in April.
Just curious. Do you have a lot of first hand experience with working life outside the CAF? Upon which you can base your comparisons?
 

brihard

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Ding ding ding.



Wrong. Too many administrative headaches left lingering around the CAF who don’t offer anything. They are liabilities who need their hands held and the great workers need to pick up their slack on a constant basis. These great workers burn out and release because why bother making the same money as the lowest performer. Can’t fire them unfortunately.

On the leave front, our unit lays out the FY plan quite clearly, with leave blocks and weeks where you’re likely needed. That still leaves you with over 200 days in the year to pick from. No one is ever denied leave, zero excuses. The beauty with PACE is the ability to leave notes on those who didn’t plan their leave as per unit direction in April.
I’ve been out for a few years now, so please remind me; when a unit or subunit commander gives direction and Ptes and Cpls don’t follow it, who then gets asked about it?
 

Eaglelord17

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I don't know how fair that comparison is though. Think of the bigger picture.

Civilian workplaces don't:
-call you at 5am and tell you to be at work for 6. Got kids? Drop em off at a neighbor's.
-order you to stay late after work, use your emergency family care plan to get your kids.
-tell you you're being sent across the country for 3 months with a weeks notice.
-cancel your vacation last minute and jerk you around if you try and get compensated for canceled airfare or hotels.
-have the ability to put you in jail if you don't show up for work.
-force multiple jobs on you and make you work at a higher-ranked position without compensation.

I also don't think your civilian work has ever ordered you to pick up cigarette butts, garbage, or branches around your building.

No other workplace in Canada has the same control over its employees that the CAF does. Vacation days are on a different level for CAF members IMO.
It depends on your job. My work starts at 7am, some parts of where I work start as early as 5am. We also work shift work which is something most of the CAF doesn’t do particularly often. We do get called in occasionally if there is a big enough job, and it can potentially be late at night.

Your cigarette butts one is a odd one to pick, I get told to clean up after others which includes garbage all the time. Civilian employers can also force multiple jobs on you, especially higher ranked ones without the pay. If you say no you can potentially be fired. There is literally a whole system set up in most places to exploit people and make them do jobs above their pay range. The CAF at least has a system and the grievance process if that fails.

It isn’t that everything is perfect in the CAF or everything is perfect civvy side, rather that sometimes the grass looks greener when in reality most Canadians will never have as good vacation options as what a new recruit in the CAF does. Especially with the new gig economy/career jumping that has developed as now your basically stuck with the legal minimums at most jobs and aren’t able to build up to the higher amounts you used to.

You are correct that no organization has as much control over employees as the CAF, however they do compensate pretty well for that level of control.
 

mariomike

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Your cigarette butts one is a odd one to pick, I get told to clean up after others which includes garbage all the time.

We used to do all our inside and outside cleaning and minor maintenance. Including lawn mowing ( if there was a lawn ) and snow shovelling.

Funny thing was when a councillor ( in response to a taxpayer's complaint ) saw the guys at one station outside mowing the lawn, trimming and doing a little gardening. General lawn maintenance like you do at home. There were over 40 stations. Some had lawns, some did not.

He didn't like that, so tried to get the Parks Dept. to do it. But, due to some wording in their contract they could / would not.

So, they hired private contractors to do it. Not sure who does it now.

And while they were at it, also hired cleaners to go station to station to do inside janitorial work - that we used to do for free. :)

What used to really grind some taxpayer gears was seeing us wash our personal cars. But, that was sort an incentive / reward for keeping the property clean.
 
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