Liberal Minority Government 2025 - ???

[Good2Golf]

I know its cold in AB this week, but I didnt think hell was freezing over

https://twitter.com/x/status/2024694883689091433

Alberta getting a Cabinet Minister would be an interesting development.

 

[YZT580]

Yes there are. And the cost of living crisis isn't limited to the housing crisis. But the housing crisis is a massive part of it. And land use planning and housing are provincial files (municipalities are delegated extensions of provincial jurisdiction and accountability that Ford is ultimately accountable for, and have been a huge driver. He's been at the wheel for coming up on 8 years, and arguable actively contributed to the problem.

The cities of Toronto and Mississauga are the economic drivers in Ontario and arguably they set the prices. Toronto in particular charges less than 20,000 for a typical building permit. But then they zap you with a 137,000 development fee. They have done this to prevent having to double property taxes: they have some of the lowest rates in Ontario. None of that has anything to do with Doug Ford. With these kind of fees new builds are out of sight for most people and so the price of re-sales goes up and that is without the demand pressure of people moving into the city. Since people can't afford Toronto they move out to the sticks. From Toronto prices drop slightly as you move out with some exceptions. Burlington charges just under 100,000 but their building permits are higher. Niagara Region is less than 50,000 for both but taxes are higher. But you know all that. It just isn't possible to provide all the services people demand without racking up the debt (which municipalities can't do), increasing property taxes (which will cost the councilors their jobs) or hiking fees. Pay for your own medical expenses, animal control, and daycare; hire a local farmer to plow your road; buy a truck load of gravel every 6 months to spread on that same road and you will reduce government costs and thus the costs of building a house. (sarcasm) But please stop blaming Doug Ford for this. He wears it for a bunch of stuff but not the price of housing.

 

[YZT580]

For interests sake, here is what Toronto's fees pay for. The list is astounding.
Spadina Subway Extension $4,384
Transit (balance) $53,181
Library $2,784
Police $772
Fire $289
Ambulance Services $1,061
Development-Related Studies $207
Long Term Care $2,399
Child Care $1,199
Waste Diversion $965
Subtotal General Services $87,491

Roads and Related $29,278
Water $4,549 $3,760 $1,
Sanitary Sewer $11,193
Storm Water Management $5,335
Subtotal Engineered Services $50,355
TOTAL CHARGE PER UNIT $137,846

 

[IKnowNothing]

The cities of Toronto and Mississauga are the economic drivers in Ontario and arguably they set the prices. Toronto in particular charges less than 20,000 for a typical building permit. But then they zap you with a 137,000 development fee. They have done this to prevent having to double property taxes: they have some of the lowest rates in Ontario. None of that has anything to do with Doug Ford. With these kind of fees new builds are out of sight for most people and so the price of re-sales goes up and that is without the demand pressure of people moving into the city. Since people can't afford Toronto they move out to the sticks. From Toronto prices drop slightly as you move out with some exceptions. Burlington charges just under 100,000 but their building permits are higher. Niagara Region is less than 50,000 for both but taxes are higher. But you know all that. It just isn't possible to provide all the services people demand without racking up the debt (which municipalities can't do), increasing property taxes (which will cost the councilors their jobs) or hiking fees.

Municipalities serve as a delegated extension of provincial authority. Passing the buck downhill is lame especially when he's shown a wanton willingness to trample all over the same municipalities when the mood strikes him.

It just isn't possible... when you constrain yourself to a broken pyramid scheme of an outward growth model that is fundamentally unsustainable. He knows the solution, he just doesn't like it and doesn't want to commit to it, so we get the half baked basement/yard house option rather than clearing the way for and supporting meaningful densification.

But please stop blaming Doug Ford for this. He wears it for a bunch of stuff but not the price of housing.

Bullshit. The crown comes with accountability. We have fundamental issues that are within his constitutional jurisdiction.

 

[Czech_pivo]

The cities of Toronto and Mississauga are the economic drivers in Ontario and arguably they set the prices. Toronto in particular charges less than 20,000 for a typical building permit. But then they zap you with a 137,000 development fee. They have done this to prevent having to double property taxes: they have some of the lowest rates in Ontario. None of that has anything to do with Doug Ford. With these kind of fees new builds are out of sight for most people and so the price of re-sales goes up and that is without the demand pressure of people moving into the city. Since people can't afford Toronto they move out to the sticks. From Toronto prices drop slightly as you move out with some exceptions. Burlington charges just under 100,000 but their building permits are higher. Niagara Region is less than 50,000 for both but taxes are higher. But you know all that. It just isn't possible to provide all the services people demand without racking up the debt (which municipalities can't do), increasing property taxes (which will cost the councilors their jobs) or hiking fees. Pay for your own medical expenses, animal control, and daycare; hire a local farmer to plow your road; buy a truck load of gravel every 6 months to spread on that same road and you will reduce government costs and thus the costs of building a house. (sarcasm) But please stop blaming Doug Ford for this. He wears it for a bunch of stuff but not the price of housing.

Housing in the GTA is controlled by a handful of privately owned companies. The smart ones (think Mattamy) have a number of smaller, separate companies under them. Company A is in charge of buying in the land. They in turn sell it to Company B for the development process. Company C then buys the individual lots to be built on and sold. Companies, A, B and C are all owned by Company D. Each of them are expected to earn a set amount of return for Company D.

For interests sake, here is what Toronto's fees pay for. The list is astounding.
Spadina Subway Extension $4,384
Transit (balance) $53,181
Library $2,784
Police $772
Fire $289
Ambulance Services $1,061
Development-Related Studies $207
Long Term Care $2,399
Child Care $1,199
Waste Diversion $965
Subtotal General Services $87,491

Roads and Related $29,278
Water $4,549 $3,760 $1,
Sanitary Sewer $11,193
Storm Water Management $5,335
Subtotal Engineered Services $50,355
TOTAL CHARGE PER UNIT $137,846

What does that represent?

A new house being built?
A new 30 story condo tower being built?
One condo within the new 30 story condo tower?
A new strip mall with 20 units?
A re-build of an existing house where the existing foundation is kept?

 

[YZT580]

Housing in the GTA is controlled by a handful of privately owned companies. The smart ones (think Mattamy) have a number of smaller, separate companies under them. Company A is in charge of buying in the land. They in turn sell it to Company B for the development process. Company C then buys the individual lots to be built on and sold. Companies, A, B and C are all owned by Company D. Each of them are expected to earn a set amount of return for Company D.

What does that represent?

A new house being built?
A new 30 story condo tower being built?
One condo within the new 30 story condo tower?
A new strip mall with 20 units?
A re-build of an existing house where the existing foundation is kept?

private residence either detached, semi or townhouse. A re-build as you describe I believe is considered renovation.

 

[Czech_pivo]

private residence either detached, semi or townhouse. A re-build as you describe I believe is considered renovation.

So a full 10% of the value of a 1.35million house just this.

 

[YZT580]

Municipalities serve as a delegated extension of provincial authority. Passing the buck downhill is lame especially when he's shown a wanton willingness to trample all over the same municipalities when the mood strikes him.

It just isn't possible... when you constrain yourself to a broken pyramid scheme of an outward growth model that is fundamentally unsustainable. He knows the solution, he just doesn't like it and doesn't want to commit to it, so we get the half baked basement/yard house option rather than clearing the way for and supporting meaningful densification.



Bullshit. The crown comes with accountability. We have fundamental issues that are within his constitutional jurisdiction.

Please say what the solution would be? I am genuinely curious as to what steps are available to him? I can buy a detached home outside of Toronto for 350,000 what possible action can the premier initiate that will reduce prices in the GTA whilst not destroying the housing market elsewhere considering the price of construction is over 150 a sq. ft. without tarriffs.

 

[lenaitch]

A lot of this recent discussion probably belongs in the 'Ontario Government' thread, but anyway . . .

I will grant that Ford will pivot in the fact of public opposition or when caught with his thumb on the scales (like his remark during the election about opening up the Greenbelt), but that still doesn't make him non-slimy. If he gets caught out doing or proposing something, I frankly don't care if it is a Liberal friendly media, or a so-called 'bought mainscream media' that reports on and keeps in the public eye.

If he went federal, he would still be a populist and likely have his own version of SNC-Lavelin or Aga Khan. If he ran the country like he does Ontario, we would probably get free passports or National Park access but the files that actually matter and require real problem solving and collaboration would likely languish.