looking for info. on grandfathers battalion

[maggiemagooo]

hey guys!!!  I'm not sure if this belongs in this post, if not please feel free to move it. I am looking for info on the battalion that my grandfather served in during ww1. The info that i have is ...
58 battalion canadian CEF......he was from the st. catherines area, was this battalion from that area??? Unfortunately the only person in the family who has a bit of info on this is at odds with the family..sigh.. so if any one has any info. where to start looking that would be great!!! thanks a million...it's a project i'm doing as a gift for my dad!

 

[Michael Dorosh]

According to SERIAL NUMBERS OF THE CEF - 58 CEF was raised at Niagara-on-Lake, in Military District 2.

 

[maggiemagooo]

hey thanks for the reply michael....but you'll have to excuse my ignorance.. but what does CEF mean..and where can i find info on this battalion???

 

[lostmuskrat]

CEF stands for Canadian Expeditionary Force, the force that Canada sent overseas in WW1.  The 58th BN were part of the 3rd Canadian Division and served at the front starting in 1916.  Though he may have served with the 58th BN, he may have been recruited by another battallion and been transferred.  You can find the war diaries of every CEF unit online at the national archives website  http://www.collectionscanada.ca/archivianet/020152_e.html
You can also find a limited number of other records (attestation papers - the forms filled out when your Grandfather signed up, and other assorted stuff) at http://www.collectionscanada.ca/archivianet/020106_e.html
If you can find out what current CF unit "perpetuates" the 58th BN, CEF, they might have a museum you can visit or use to find more information.  You can also contact the national archives to get his service record.
I'll check some of my books and info to see if I can find out some more tidbits that might be helpful.  Feel free to email me.

 

[GGboy]

Small world!
My grandfather was also in the 58th Bn, which I believe is perpetuated by the Royal Regt of Canada. He was originally in a northern Ontario regiment (which later became the Algonquin Regt) but got sent to England as a replacement and joined the 58th in France in 1917. Won an MC at Passchendaele.
Someone recently wrote a history of the battalion, a Toronto historian named Shackleton but I never got the chance to read it.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Details on the 58th Battalion as given in "Over the Top! The Canadian Infantry in the First World War": by John F Meek:


58th Battalion, Canadian Expeditionary Force (CEF)

Authorized by General Order 103a of 15 August 1915.

Recruiting Area: Military District No. 2 (Central Ontario)
Mobilization Headquarters: Niagara on the Lake

Service:
Canada - 21 May 1915 to 22 Nov 1915
England - 30 Nov 1915 to 20 Feb 1916
France - 22 Feb 1916 to 10 Feb 1919
Canada - Returned aboard "Baltic" 12 Mar 1919

Officers Commanding:
Lieutenant Colonel H.A. Genet, D.S.O. - 22 Nov 1915 to 11 Jan 1918
Lieutenant Colonel R.A. MacFarlane, D.S.O. - 12 jan 1918 to Demobilization

Victoria Cross Winners:
Corp[oral Harru Garnet Bedford Miner: 8 Aug 1918

Battle Honours:
Mount Sorrel, Somme, 1916, Flers-Courcelette, Ancre Heights, Arras, 1917, '18, Vimy, 1917, Hill 70, Ypres, 1917, Passchendaele, Amiens, Scarpe, 1918, Drocourt-Queant, Hindenburg Line, Canal du Nord, Cambrai, 1918, Pursuit to Mons, France and Flanders, 1916-18 (G.O. 110 of 1929)

As GGboy noted, the 58th Bn is perpetutaed by the Royal Regiment of Canada. Battle honours for the Royal Regt and its perpetuated units can be found here: http://regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/bathnrinf/09-rregtc.htm.

One published history of the Royal Regiment is:

Battle royal: a history of the Royal Regiment of Canada, 1862-1962 / by Donald James Goodspeed.  Toronto: Royal Regiment of Canada Association, 1962. 703 p.

 

[pbi]

When I served in RRegtC (1974-1982) we had one company in the unit designated as "58 Company" to perpetuate the CEF battalion. We also had an annual parade and ceremony to mark the Battle of Mout Sorrel: on that day we placed a sprig of sorrel in our headdress. Cheers.

 

[maggiemagooo]

wow, you guys are amazing you know that!!!!  Thank you for replying so fast to my request for info.! I went to the link in collections canada and found the actually attestation papers my grandfather signed (twice) when he joined,it gave me goosebumps. My grandfather was so intent on signing up that he actually lied about his age to get in. After serving for two months with CMR, he was discharged, and told to come back when he was old enough, so he did.
GGboy, thats so cool that your grandfather served with the same battalion, very small world !
So what unit now perpetuates the 58th battalion and where are they ???

 

[jmacleod]

MGen Sam Hughes as Defence Minister in World War I eliminated the names of all Canadian Regiments
during World War I, and introduced the Battalion number system, thus the Cape Breton Highlanders
became the 85th Battalion. Why Hughes did this has never been explained, but my late father
and his friends, most of whom served in the Canadian Army in both World Wars, always considered
Sam Hughes a fool and an incompetent. Hughes introduced the infamous Ross rifle to CEF infantry
which failed in actual combat conditions, and even lobbied for himself to be awarded a VC for
service in the Boer War. His nasty campaign against General Currie, possibly the best General Officer
in the history of the Canadian Army, was a low mark in the politics of the military in this Country.
MacLeod

 

[Michael Dorosh]

MGen Sam Hughes as Defence Minister in World War I eliminated the names of all Canadian Regiments
during World War I,

This isn't true, exactly - the numbered regiments soldiered on in Canada with their names unchanged.  They simply didn't mobilize as units.  So when the 10th Battalion was formed, for example, the 103rd Regiment (Calgary Rifles) and 106th Regiment (Winnipeg Light Infantry) remained in Calgary and Winnipeg - they did so until 1921, in fact, and the reorganization of the Militia.

 

[jmacleod]

So if they did not "soldier on" as units. what was the point. My father and my uncles
who served in the 85th Battalion, would never under an circumstance used the term
85th Battalion - they served in the Cape Breton Highlanders, under Col. Small "my name
is Small, and I am small). In World War II, the Cape Breton Highlanders (the CBH) were
part of the Infantry Assault Force of the 1st Canadian Division (The Red Shoulder Patch)
along with the Royal 22nd Regiment (the Van Doos) and the Hastings and Prince Edward
Regiment (the Hasty Peas) - possibly the best infantry units in the Canadian Army - real
fighting soldiers, many of whom (too many) remain in Sicily, Italy, France and Germany.
In any event, all this history is almost lost in the Canadian educational system - even my
late sister, with a Masters Degree in Education, was limited on her knowledge of our
great military history. Regards MacLeod

 

[Michael Dorosh]

So if they did not "soldier on" as units. what was the point. My father and my uncles
who served in the 85th Battalion, would never under an circumstance used the term
85th Battalion - they served in the Cape Breton Highlanders,

Irrelevant, since I was discussing the use of the names by the regiments in Canada.   You seemed like you were implying the Regiments disbanded, they did not.   The CEF was a seperate legal entity from the Canadian Militia; the former served in France and Flanders divided into numbered battalions, the old Regiments soldiered on in Canada, usually with different identities and traditions.   Some few like the Black Watch managed to keep regimental distinctions alive in more than one active CEF battalion, most were not so lucky.

The same thing happened in World War Two, incidentally - the CASF was seperate from the Canadian Militia, until 1940 when the two forces were renamed the Canadian Army.   The only difference was that mobilized units of the CASF had names to match the home regiments.   In 1940, they were numbered, with Active battalions becoming 1st Battalions and home regiments being 2nd Battalions (some regiments raised 3rd and 4th battalions as well - some of these saw active service with the Pacific Force and Occupation Force).

As for what your relatives called the 85th Battalion, that's a bit irrelevant too.   Carrying on with my example,   the Light Infantry and Riflemen of the 106th and 103rd Regiments never took their distinctions with them into the new Battalion they formed in the CEF - and simply called themselves the Fighting Tenth, or officially, Tenth Canadians - abandoning Rifle Regiment traditions like black buttons and rank badges, or light infantry traditions like the buglehorn.   For every CEF battalion that drew from only one regiment, there was another that drew its strength from several regiments, in some cases as many as eight.   The 16th is a notable example, drawing soldiers from the Canadian Seaforths, Gordons, Argylls and Camerons - eventually renaming themselves The Canadian Scottish Regiment and adopting tartan and traditions completely foreign to any of the peacetime regiments from which they were created.

I'd have to check my list, but was there even a "Cape Breton Highlanders" regiment before World War One?   Many of the CEF battalions did rename themselves - colourful names like McLean's Kilties, The Sportsmen Battalion, Canadian Vikings, et al, but these were not related to the Regimental system in place at home in the Canadian Militia either.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Firstly, apologies to maggie for continuing this tangent.

I'd have to check my list, but was there even a "Cape Breton Highlanders" regiment before World War One?  Many of the CEF battalions did rename themselves - colourful names like McLean's Kilties, The Sportsmen Battalion, Canadian Vikings, et al, but these were not related to the Regimental system in place at home in the Canadian Militia either.

The 85th Bn, C.E.F., was raised by General Order 103a of 14 Aug 1915. It's name was the "Nova Scotia Highlanders." The battalion's mobilization headquarters was Halifax and the recruiting area is given as "Nova Scotia." ("Over the Top! The Canadian Infantry in the First World War": by John F Meek)

Other battalions linked to the 85th or Nova Scotian highland traditions, include:

17th Battalion (Nova Scotia Highlanders) - Redesignated the 17th Reserve Battalion, fornmed part of the Canadian Training Depot, located at Tidworth Barracks.

185th Bn, "Cape Breton Highlanders" - Raised throughout Cape Breton. Mobilization HQ in Broughton. Badged "Cape Breton Highlanders. No service in France as a unit, absorbed into the 17th Reserve Battalion.

193rd Bn, "Nova Scotia Highlanders" - Raised throughout NS, Mobilization HQ in Truro. Badged "Nova Scotia Highlanders. No service in France as a unit, absorbed into the 17th Reserve Battalion.

219th Overseas Highland Battalion - Raised throughout NS, Mobilization HQ in Aldershot. Badged "Overseas Highland Battalion". No service in France as a unit, absorbed into the 17th Reserve Battalion.

246th Infantry battalion, CEF - Raised throughout NS, Mobilization HQ in Halifax. Badged "Nova Scotia Highlanders.  No service in France as a unit, absorbed into the 17th Reserve Battalion.

("Over the Top! The Canadian Infantry in the First World War": by John F Meek)


According to "Regiments and Corps of the Canadian Army", published by the Army Historical Section in 1964, the first application of the title "Cape Breton Highlanders" for the Canadian Militia came about in the 1920 reorganizations of the Militia, when the 94th Victoria Regiment 'Argyll Highlanders' were renamed.

The 2nd Battalion, Nova Scotia Highlanders, the direct descendant unit of the 94th / CB Highrs, perpetuates (along with the 1st Battalion on the mainland), the following CEF units: 17th, 25th, 85th, 106th, 185th, 193rd and 246th Battalions, CEF.

Battle Honours for the Nova Scotia Highlanders, and its perpetuated units, can be found here: http://regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/bathnrinf/27-nshighrs.htm

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Thanks, Michael.  I didn't mean to derail the thread, but it bothers me to see our history mangled.  Rereading Mr. MacLeod's comments - in tandem with your own (I've used the Regiments and Corps book as the basis of my own webpages devoted to order of battle, though my info on CEF battalions comes from SERIAL NUMBERS OF THE CEF by Wigney), I see some other interesting bits.

. In World War II, the Cape Breton Highlanders (the CBH) were
part of the Infantry Assault Force of the 1st Canadian Division (The Red Shoulder Patch)
along with the Royal 22nd Regiment (the Van Doos) and the Hastings and Prince Edward
Regiment (the Hasty Peas) - possibly the best infantry units in the Canadian Army - real
fighting soldiers, many of whom (too many) remain in Sicily, Italy, France and Germany.

This is a pretty fair mangling as well.  There was no such thing as an "Infantry Assault Force" - the 9 rifle battalions of the 1st Infantry Division, of which the Cape Breton Highlanders were not a part, were divided into three brigades.  The Hasty Ps (not Peas as from the garden, but Pees as in the letter "pee") were in the First Brigade, while the Van Doos were in the 3rd Brigade and the Cape Breton Highlanders were not in the 1st Division at all, but in the 5th Canadian (Armoured) Division!

And for what its worth, the First Division is generally considered the best of the 5 (though in the spring of 1942, they were rated below the 2nd, hence the selection of the latter for Dieppe) mainly because they had more battle experience than anyone else.  In reality, they were all good battalions, each with its share of heros and cowards.

Those same Hasty P's you cite as being head and shoulders above the rest of the Army actually lay claim to the only Canadian executed during World War Two for desertion....

Not to cast aspersions on the fine regiments you mention, but before you go knocking Sam Hughes' mobilization scheme, you need to present something a little less visceral by way of an explanation.  In the end, no matter what ineffeciencies there may have been or how costly it may have been to provide cardboard boots and delicate rifles, the system somehow created an entire corps of shock troops - a feat we never matched in World War Two, positive press by the Old Red Patch and Mighty Maroon Machine notwithstanding.

It's well and good to remember the Canadian Army with pride, but let's remember what they actually did and not try and elevate individual units with propaganda to no end.  A good reading of Fred Cederberg will bring the Cape Breton Highlanders right back down to earth again.

And if there are Hasty P's, Cape Breton Highlanders or Van Doos lying in France, it is tragic since they never fought there - both the 1st and 5th Divisions moved to Holland in the spring of 1945 and did see action there for a few weeks, but by then France was well and truly liberated.  Unless you refer to the unfortunate motorcycle despatch rider who got killed in June 1940 when elements of the 1st Division arrived in France after Dunkirk....only to be withdrawn a couple of days later.

 

[jmacleod]

My late father's family had many members serving in the Canadian Army in both Wars
but thinking back, several of my cousins served in the First Canadian Division (Red Shoulder
Patch) in the West Nova Scotia Regiment, who were in the line with the Hastings & Prince Edward Regiment and the Royal 22nd Regiment. I was unaware the the Cape Breton Highlanders with part of the Fifth Canadian Armoured Division, but a large number of
CBH soldiers fought in France with the 1st Special Service Force - my next door neighbour
was one of them - they were later transferred back to the CBH, which went on to fight
in Holland. My point was however, I remember these men from World War II and after
talking about the Regiments, but never would the term "185th" or "85th" be used
- part of the popular mythology about Cape Breton is that most of the settlers in CB
NS were from the Scots Highlands - only a few, from the Duke of Argyle's estates in
Scotland were - most, which is equally true of Ontario of the period 1860's came from
Ulster (the UlsterMen) - that is why there were so many Loyal Orange Lodges in Canada.MacLeod

 

[Michael OLeary]

I've been pondering the development of this thread and, I think, jmacleod touched on one basis for the discussion with his comment of "popular mythology." Although his use of the term dealt with the popular perception of Cape Bretoners regarding their shared heritage, it is equally applicable to the way many of our regiments describe and pass along their histories.

Much of the common knowledge of our Regiments' pasts are blended histories of the named regiment, its amalgamated and perpetuated forebears, and that of the units who went before it in their community. Some of the common misperceptions that I have come to recognize include:

a. failing to understand the difference between the history of the Militia in a community, and the history of a Regiment authorized by the Canadian Parliament following Confederation. While many men may have carried over from pre-Confederation unit to Post-Confederation unit, even under similar unit names, they are properly two different organizations,

b. failing to acknowledge the separate organization of the perpetuated CEF battalions within the Regiments' history. Confirmation of perpetuated units was not identified until after the war (The Otter Commission, 1920).  Even similarly named and badged regiments were not officially products of the home unit, they were CEF battalions allowed by individual agreements to adopt such accoutrements in the hope that the sentimental connection would help to bolster recruiting, and

c. forgetting the varied and specific histories of amalgamated regiments, whose original regimental names are now gone from the order of battle.

These comments are certainly not meant to denigrate any of our current Regiments. I would hope that better recognition of the diverse origins of our regimental lineages would encourage units to recognize their forebears with greater accuracy and better acknowledgement of where currently supported, and discontinued, honours and traditions arose. In some ways, the enthusiastic defence of the simpler â Å“blendedâ ? popular histories has subordinated, even buried, other stories and regimental names which are equally worthy of remembrance and the continued sharing of histories among today's soldiers.