Lynndie England - Patriot or Torturer: What do you think?

[1feral1]

For those who dont know Lynndie, she is the 21 yr old who has made headlines throughout the world and has become a household name fo the wrong reasons.

I was reading in todasys SDT www.dailytelegraph.com.au about her, and to actually read that local trailer trash from her home town are actually supporting her.

Wow! What do I think? Personally she has singlehandedly caused the increase of more hatred against the US, along with more mistrust and possibly endangered all western hostages currently held.

I am totally disgusted that this abuse of PWs has happened, and I am outraged at the whole event.

What happened to professionalism and pride amoung soldiers and quality leadership? Where ere the SNCOs, WOs and Officers?

Did they turn a blind eye?

I am sure heads will roll, and as for her and her colleagues who started this all, I hope a detailed courts martial, which will be publically shown will sent all envolved for a long stay at the Crowbar Hotel for many years.

I just shake my head in disgust. So much for ‘hearts and minds‘. I hope the damge can be repaired.

Regards,

Wes

 

[scm77]

Torturer. She should be punished to the full extent of the law, as well as anyone else who was involved.

Now people in the middle east are going to hate america.

 

[quebecrunner]

They are barbarians. They should respect human rights and the Geneva convention. I hope they gonna be punished. For me, its an act of treason against the USA: the psychological effect will be devastating and more americans will be killed and capture because of that.

I wonder...Do someone know how this thing came out? After all, we have only speculations about the Guantanamo Bay prisoners...

 

[scm77]

It came out because some moron who was there took pictures of it. Then CBS broadcast them last week.

If you going to do something that violates international law, don‘t take pictures.

 

[CDNBlackhawk]

Torture is wrong, buts its no secret that every country in the world has practiced or practices torture to some extent to get information.

The ones involved should be punished to the fullist extent of the law, to me they are a disgrace.

 

[NMPeters]

The moron isn‘t the one who took the pictures. The moron is the one who allowed the pictures to be taken...

 

[Duotone81]

Maybe they wanted their pictures taken. Like when you go on a fishing or hunting trip and you take pictures of the the fish or moose you caught. A trophy if you will.

You can take Lynndie out of the trailer park but you can‘t take the trailer park out of Lynndie.

 

[RCA]

"If you going to do something that violates international law, don‘t take pictures" interesting spin - If you murder someone and nobody sees, is it a murder, hmmmm.

"Now people in the middle east are going to hate america" - I guess they were just tolerated before

Think before you type, otherwise your ego make take a hit.

So the weight of the US is going to come down on some private for the abuses of many up the chain. Sound familiar. She isn‘t the only one, and is at the absolute bottom of the food chain. And they took pictures beacuse what they thought they were doning wasn‘t wrong, and even if it might have been they won‘t get caught.

The **** has hit the fan and the spray is going to stick to alot of people, a few who probably don‘t desaervew it, a scrafices are going to be amade for public percepetion.

 

[Brad Sallows]

"Foolish" and "cruel", perhaps. This stuff was already investigated. Apparently the first press release that an investigation was in progress was 16 Jan.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I think it‘s obvious the soldiers were posing in the pictures. I mean smiling like a kid in a candy store beside a pile of naked bodies with a thumbs up? They knew they were signing their own death warrants so to speak.
RCA had a great point. Were seeing fall out at the very bottom level but the whole chain of command is responsible. I watched on TV how the red cross went to the prison months ago, saw what was going on and repeatedly reported it to the US armies chain of command (It‘s against one of their rules to speak publically with what they find in prisons etc.. without first speaking to those responsible or something)

I have to disagree with you on one point however RCA. You‘ve said
"And they took pictures beacuse what they thought they were doning wasn‘t wrong" I cannot believe a trained soldier, especially from a western army who has the spotlight on EVERY action they take in iraq, would think this is ok. If a new recruit to the army or an army cadet see‘s something wrong with this type of behavior how can a trained soldier in a combat zone not? If there is a reason it‘s beyond my reasoning.

I really do hope the fallout goes up the chain of command as well and we don‘t find a few privates and corporals taking the full brunt of punishment.

 

[1feral1]

Good one Ghost.

But I reckon the Enlisted will take it hard, with gaol time, and dishonourables, while the the LTCOLs, MGENs and the brass hats will get re-assigned, and have a slight repremand on their files.

Thats how it always is, look at Somalia for example.


Regards,

Wes

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Ghost778:
[qb] I think it‘s obvious the soldiers were posing in the pictures. I mean smiling like a kid in a candy store beside a pile of naked bodies with a thumbs up? They knew they were signing their own death warrants so to speak.
RCA had a great point. Were seeing fall out at the very bottom level but the whole chain of command is responsible. I watched on TV how the red cross went to the prison months ago, saw what was going on and repeatedly reported it to the US armies chain of command (It‘s against one of their rules to speak publically with what they find in prisons etc.. without first speaking to those responsible or something)

I have to disagree with you on one point however RCA. You‘ve said
"And they took pictures beacuse what they thought they were doning wasn‘t wrong" I cannot believe a trained soldier, especially from a western army who has the spotlight on EVERY action they take in iraq, would think this is ok. If a new recruit to the army or an army cadet see‘s something wrong with this type of behavior how can a trained soldier in a combat zone not? If there is a reason it‘s beyond my reasoning.

I really do hope the fallout goes up the chain of command as well and we don‘t find a few privates and corporals taking the full brunt of punishment. [/qb]

German soldiers on the Eastern Front routinely had their pictures taken with "partisans" hanging from trees, or Jewish civilians being abused in the streets of small villages and large towns alike.

Why?

They didn‘t think they were doing anything wrong. They were of the opinion the people they were fighting were sub-human (untermenschen) and that they were doing their part to make the world a better place.

This is obviously what the smiling 21 year old rocket scientists in the prison were thinking when they posed with their captives. They were just as proud of what they were doing as the German soldiers killing "bolsheviks" in Russia.

War is about dehumanization of the enemy; I agree with Infanteer et al that that is a necessary part of mental conditioning of soldiers, but the mark of the civilized soldier is knowing where, when and how to draw the line.

I actually advocated the death sentence for the jailors on another forum; that was probably over the top but certainly they need to be made an example of.

I notice Rumsfeld took full responsiblity on CNN today. Good for him.

 

[muskrat89]

I have a semi-related question - how wise was it to have Iraqi POWs watched over by female guards?

Was it logistically unavoidable? A case of "Too bad, you lost" ? I‘ve heard a lot of civilians (friends/co-workers) comment on this, but haven‘t seen it batted around by pundits like us..

You used to hear how (female)troops stationed in Mideast countries were required to respect the area‘s customs by covering up, etc.

 

[Mo` fella]

Michael Dorosh, the problem I have with your arguement is that unlike those German soldiers in WW2, Lyndsie-baby and her crew of genius friends friends knew better. You see, what people are missing here is the fact that these folks were MPs, and one of the roles of MPs is prisoner handling. If anyone knew something was wrong it was these people.

incedentaly, I heard one of PFC England‘s relatives saying in a press conference that she didn‘t actually work with the prisoners, she only booked them. What this implies to me is, when the dog leash/golden shower activities got started she actually got out of her office and came down into the cells area to join in on the fun!

And now, I understand pte England has been home for a while now. Not in connection with anything discipline-wise, but through that well known, tried and true method that servicewomen over there in Iraq use to get a quick ticket home: She got pregnant and is now 5 months along. The proud father is another of the accused that appears in some of the pictures, whom Pte England refers to as her "fiance."

How sweet, eh? When they get married they‘ve got some good material to start off a really interesting wedding album.

I also am glad Secretary Rumsfeld admitted responsibility, and I‘m also glad Sen McCain gave Rumsfeld the shellacking he deserved.

My first post. Bad subject to start with. Hi everybody.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Mo‘ fella:
[qb] Michael Dorosh, the problem I have with your arguement is that unlike those German soldiers in WW2, Lyndsie-baby and her crew of genius friends friends knew better. You see, what people are missing here is the fact that these folks were MPs, and one of the roles of MPs is prisoner handling. If anyone knew something was wrong it was these people.

incedentaly, I heard one of PFC England‘s relatives saying in a press conference that she didn‘t actually work with the prisoners, she only booked them. What this implies to me is, when the dog leash/golden shower activities got started she actually got out of her office and came down into the cells area to join in on the fun!

And now, I understand pte England has been home for a while now. Not in connection with anything discipline-wise, but through that well known, tried and true method that servicewomen over there in Iraq use to get a quick ticket home: She got pregnant and is now 5 months along. The proud father is another of the accused that appears in some of the pictures, whom Pte England refers to as her "fiance."

How sweet, eh? When they get married they‘ve got some good material to start off a really interesting wedding album.

I also am glad Secretary Rumsfeld admitted responsibility, and I‘m also glad Sen McCain gave Rumsfeld the shellacking he deserved.

My first post. Bad subject to start with. Hi everybody. [/qb]

Welcome to the Little Black Devil! Hope the weather is ok in Winnipeg.

But the Germans "knew better" too - they were convinced what they were doing was acceptable and that is the parallel. We have no real way of knowing what those MPs thought, but the fact they are smiling and posing for pictures tells us that they aren‘t trying to hide any wrong doing, or even thinking twice about it.

They may have been ordered to treat the prisoners as such, maybe the prisoners admitted to being executioners for Saddam and the jailors took it upon themselves, who knows - but for some reason, they feel no shame about what they are doing.

The question is - where does that conviction come from? What convinced them that the Geneva Convention and all their military training didn‘t apply anymore?

Sixty years later we still have no idea how ten million people could be exterminated by the Germans and their allies, one hopes that getting to the bottom of this travesty will be a little easier, and that this has been nipped in the bud...but evidence is starting to point out that maybe it will be otherwise.

I guess we‘re all on the sidelines and will be told what others feel we need to be told.

 

[Mo` fella]

[

They may have been ordered to treat the prisoners as such, maybe the prisoners admitted to being executioners for Saddam and the jailors took it upon themselves, who knows - but for some reason, they feel no shame about what they are doing.

The question is - where does that conviction come from? What convinced them that the Geneva Convention and all their military training didn‘t apply anymore?

Thanks Michael,...the weather is rotten here! Its always about 10 degrees colder than Caglary.

I guess there are two ways of looking at this. First, that Mil int or civilian int contractors had control of the prison and staff, and convinced staff what they were doing was right, that they had to break the prisoners down for interogation, and to disregard the Geneva Conventions. The Chairman of the Joint Cheifs today admitted that the Int ops had "tactical control" in the prison over the guards.

The other possibility is a total breakdown in leadership in that MP brigade from the bottom up. Some of the featured heroes in those pictures were SERGEANTS. And I see the fired Commander of that MP brigade, that bohemoth she-general Janis Kar-something is spinning her story on the talk show curcuit and her lawyer is giving sound bites on how honourable she is.

I still think England is a disgrace should be punished of course, but like the old saying goes; ‘There are no bad soldiers, just bad leaders...‘

if these specimens from pte England up to the top really want to get their hands on the insurgents, give them a rifle and flak vest and send them to Falluja with the Infantry and tankers.

 

[devil39]

Originally posted by Mo‘ fella:
[qb] [

The other possibility is a total breakdown in leadership in that MP brigade from the bottom up. Some of the featured heroes in those pictures were SERGEANTS. And I see the fired Commander of that MP brigade, that bohemoth she-general Janis Kar-something is spinning her story on the talk show curcuit and her lawyer is giving sound bites on how honourable she is.
[/qb]

Absolutely there appears to be a failure in leadership. Leaders must be morally and ethically strong enough to stop this kind of stuff.

That being said, there are many Sergeants in the US Army, not quite like ours. One can be a Sgt, according to the army website in 18 months.

http://www.goarmy.com/army101/ranks.htm

 

[Infanteer]

She has undermined the efforts of many GI‘s who have performed their duties honorably. For that, her and the rest of those idiots in the pictures should be serverly punished.

But, Michael Dorosh is right. The fact that they were so brazen in committing these means there was tacit concent up the chain. Something similar to "Shoot ‘em between the skirt and the flip-flops". For that, senior leadership must be held accountable (something that wasn‘t followed through when our own little mess broke out).

For a good little read on the subject, check out "Lament for an Army" by Lt. Col. John English.

 

[muskrat89]

Snr NCOs and up should be charged with negligence or something similar. The rest of those idiots should be charged with being colossally(sp) stupid..

I never had to have a specific class to tell me not to treat prisoners that way. I did have one that taught me the difference between a lawful command, and unlawful commands.

The whole thing is an abhorration...

 

[Bert]

The incident is really the worst public news to affect world view and American operations.

To the muslim male, there is no greater humilitation to be degraded like this by a female.
To the Iraqi and greater population, by a female American soldier. Interesting these pictures came out and where given the most exposure.

Its fine for the Americans to take the moral high ground undertaking the Iraqi operations, but this really undermines American attempts to gain the trust of the locals in surrounding countries. The moral high ground stool was kicked out from under them.

Aibeit, the general use of humilitation may be a tool many intelligence/interrogation organizations around the world use and likely there is no country or organization employing interrogation techniques can claim the moral high ground either. Its just this incident will have unsettling ramifications in the region.