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Militarization of the police?

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RCDtpr

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Kilo_302 said:
The point is, no one in this community trusts the police. So whether the witnesses are right or not, that's what everyone is hearing. I can't speak to your personal experiences in law enforcement, but the situation in the states is far different. Just look at the stats:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/police-shootings-michael-brown-ferguson-black-men

How could it NOT be a different situation when a black man is shot? They seem to get shot with alarming frequency in the US. The whole system is racist.

And no, it doesn't take a visit to Ferguson to know that an MRAP is over the top. New Glasgow in NS has an armoured vehicle for #$@#'s sake. This is about emphasizing one style of policing, one tool in the box.

They are shot with an alarming frequency because they statistically commit more crimes.  This isn't a race thing, it's a crime stat thing.  No different in Canada how aboriginals are hugely over represented in jails.  The fact is, crime stats don't lie.

Look up the stats for a predominately white state such as Utah , Oregon, or Montana.  I wouldn't be shocked to see police shoot more white people there than minorities.

I don't discriminate...I'll shoot and kill a white guy just as fast as an Asian, African American, Native etc etc.  I, like all others I work with, are far more concerned with going home than letting someone hurt us because it may offend a particular ethnic group.

Here's the question I pose to you...why would have it been "acceptable" had the officer in question be black?

I also want to throw this out there to ensure I'm not being misconstrued.  I'm 100% for a proper and thorough investigation being done on this, and if the officer was wrong then fire him, toss him in jail etc etc.  What I don't believe in, is people getting mad and destroying their city or hurting others in the name of "justice."  What the public is doing there is not the answer and frankly my personal belief is that it's no longer about the kid being shot, it's about the fact that those people have open season to do whatever they want and human nature is taking over.  The public is going to denounce the heavy handed police response that WILL be necessary to finally quell this.....yet they are bringing it on themselves.
 

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Kilo_302 said:
The point is, no one in this community trusts the police. So whether the witnesses are right or not, that's what everyone is hearing. I can't speak to your personal experiences in law enforcement, but the situation in the states is far different. Just look at the stats:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/police-shootings-michael-brown-ferguson-black-men

How could it NOT be a different situation when a black man is shot? They seem to get shot with alarming frequency in the US. The whole system is racist.

And no, it doesn't take a visit to Ferguson to know that an MRAP is over the top. New Glasgow in NS has an armoured vehicle for #$@#'s sake. This is about emphasizing one style of policing, one tool in the box.

You're quoting from a sensationalist, extreme left wing magazine. What did you expect?

No one in the community? Pretty ballsy statement, speaking for an entire population.

The whole system is racist? Your own lopsided bias is showing. Maybe you're the racist. :dunno:

Better tone down your rhetoric and take a sugar pill for that bitterness that's eating you up.

You're still on thin ice for previous outbursts.

---Staff---
 

cupper

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RCDcpl said:
I don't discriminate...I'll shoot and kill a white guy just as fast as an Asian, African American, Native etc etc.  I, like all others I work with, are far more concerned with going home than letting someone hurt us because it may offend a particular ethnic group.

Might want to dial that one back just a bit.

RCDcpl said:
Here's the question I pose to you...why would have it been "acceptable" had the officer in question be black?

No one has said it would have been "acceptable". The facts that are currently known and not in dispute about the incident are that a police officer shot and killed an unarmed individual. Everything else that has been brought up is either not relevant to the shooting itself, or has yet to be substantiated.

As it is, the local police have done more to stir up emotions within the community that they have done to calm the situation. Releasing the video showing the shooting victim in the commission of a strong arm robbery prior to the shooting after being advised by the Justice Department that there could be significant backlash. Making contradictory statements as to the officer having knowledge of the robbery or not. The heavy handed response, arresting media observing from a McDonalds.
 

cupper

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More on the so-called Mission creep of the militarization of police, and questionable justifications for it. This is the first part of the Salon article I referenced in my prior posts. (just posting a couple of highlights this time but worth reading the whole article)

“Why did you shoot me? I was reading a book”: The new warrior cop is out of control

http://www.salon.com/2013/07/07/“why_did_you_shoot_me_i_was_reading_a_book_the_new_warrior_cop_is_out_of_control/

Sal Culosi is dead because he bet on a football game — but it wasn’t a bookie or a loan shark who killed him. His local government killed him, ostensibly to protect him from his gambling habit.

Several months earlier at a local bar, Fairfax County, Virginia, detective David Baucum overheard the thirty-eight-year-old optometrist and some friends wagering on a college football game. “To Sal, betting a few bills on the Redskins was a stress reliever, done among friends,” a friend of Culosi’s told me shortly after his death. “None of us single, successful professionals ever thought that betting fifty bucks or so on the Virginia–Virginia Tech football game was a crime worthy of investigation.” Baucum apparently did. After overhearing the men wagering, Baucum befriended Culosi as a cover to begin investigating him. During the next several months, he talked Culosi into raising the stakes of what Culosi thought were just more fun wagers between friends to make watching sports more interesting. Eventually Culosi and Baucum bet more than $2,000 in a single day. Under Virginia law, that was enough for police to charge Culosi with running a gambling operation. And that’s when they brought in the SWAT team.

On the night of January 24, 2006, Baucum called Culosi and arranged a time to drop by to collect his winnings. When Culosi, barefoot and clad in a T-shirt and jeans, stepped out of his house to meet the man he thought was a friend, the SWAT team began to move in. Seconds later, Det. Deval Bullock, who had been on duty since 4:00 AM and hadn’t slept in seventeen hours, fired a bullet that pierced Culosi’s heart.

Sal Culosi’s last words were to Baucum, the cop he thought was a friend: “Dude, what are you doing?”

The raid on Sal Culosi was merely another red flag indicating yet more SWAT team mission creep in America. It wasn’t even the first time a Virginia SWAT team had killed someone during a gambling raid. In 1998 a SWAT team in Virginia Beach shot and killed security guard Edward C. Reed during a 3:00 AM raid on a private club suspected of facilitating gambling. Police said they approached the tinted car where Reed was working security, knocked, and identified themselves, then shot Reed when he refused to drop his handgun. Reed’s family insisted the police story was unlikely. Reed had no criminal record. Why would he knowingly point his gun at a heavily armed police team? More likely, they said, Reed mistakenly believed the raiding officers were there to do harm, particularly given that the club had been robbed not long before the raid. Statements by the police themselves seem to back that account. According to officers at the scene, Reed’s last words were, “Why did you shoot me? I was reading a book.”

But the mission creep hasn’t stopped at poker games. By the end of the 2000s, police departments were sending SWAT teams to enforce regulatory law. In August 2010, for example, a team of heavily armed Orange County, Florida, sheriff’s deputies raided several black-and Hispanic-owned barbershops in the Orlando area. More raids followed in September and October. The Orlando Sentinel reported that police held barbers and customers at gunpoint and put some in handcuffs, while they turned the shops inside out. The police raided a total of nine shops and arrested thirty-seven people.

By all appearances, these raids were drug sweeps. Shop owners told the Sentinel that police asked them where they were hiding illegal drugs and weapons. But in the end, thirty-four of the thirty-seven arrests were for “barbering without a license,” a misdemeanor for which only three people have ever served jail time in Florida.
The most disturbing aspect of the Orlando raids was that police didn’t even attempt to obtain a legal search warrant. They didn’t need to, because they conducted the raids in conjunction with the Florida Department of Business and Professional Regulation. Despite the guns and handcuffs, under Florida law these were licensure inspections, not criminal searches, so no warrants were necessary.

But other legal challenges to paramilitary-style administrative searches have been less successful. Consider the bizarre case of David Ruttenberg, owner of the Rack ‘n’ Roll pool hall in Manassas Park, Virginia. In June 2004, local police conducted a massive raid on the pool hall with more than fifty police officers, some of whom were wearing face masks, toting semi-automatic weapons, and pumping shotguns as they entered. Customers were detained, searched, and zip-tied. The police were investigating Ruttenberg for several alleged drug crimes, although he was never charged. The local narcotics task force had tried unsuccessfully to get a warrant to search Ruttenberg’s office but were denied by a judge. Instead, they simply brought along several representatives of the Virginia Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control and claimed that they were conducting an alcohol inspection. Ruttenberg was cited only for three alcohol violations, based on two bottles of beer a distributor had left that weren’t clearly marked as samples, and a bottle of vodka they found in his private office.

Also check out the celebrities who have been taken along on raids, such as Shaquille O'Neal and Steven Segal.  :facepalm:
 

Shamrock

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cupper said:
Also check out the celebrities who have been taken along on raids, such as Shaquille O'Neal and Steven Segal.  :facepalm:
And Brian Cranston on that documentary he did about cancer treatment.
 

Lightguns

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George Wallace said:
Granted it is almost a Century too late, but the New Glasgow Miners Strike was one of the largest and most violent protests in Canadian history.  The Army was called out to patrol New Glasgow and Cape Breton.  Perhaps this is just 90 years of paperwork finally catching up with them.  >:D

All our strikes in New Glasgow and Trenton were violent in the 70s.  As teenagers, we would sit on the stone wall above the Trenton Works at midnight on the first night of the strike.  Purpose: to laugh at the commissionaire climbing out the bathroom window of the guard shack as the union arson team light the shack on fire out front.  Happened everytime, that and the burning of the managers' cars in their driveways. 
 

Dkeh

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I think the term "militarization"  is easily misused, and in the case of the United States (at least in my opinion), an exaggeration.

Police need to be better armed than the criminals they are defending the general population from. I would argue that this is indisputable.

When you have criminals arming themselves with higher tech weaponry, the police must compensate to maintain their competitive edge.

Another factor that I think people are overlooking is access to information. With the rise of the internet in the last ~25 years, anyone can easily look-up how to make HME, listen in on police frequencies, organize a violent protest (black bloc), etc. Physical weaponry aside, a rise in access to information for criminal elements constitutes a very real ability for said criminal elements to escalate force effortlessly and without warning. A domestic violence call could (potentially) erupt into a full blown gun battle, and a bank robbery could escalate into a car full of criminals driving around detonating HME. Yes, it is extreme and unlikely, but just because it is unlikely does not mean that Police should not be prepared for it.

It isn't just the United States or Canada that are equipping they LEOs with more capable equipment. Take a look at these two BBC articles, written by the same author, almost exactly two years apart:

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19641398 - Why British Police don't have guns

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28656324 - British Police on armed patrols

While this is obviously not the same as giving a county sheriff an MRAP, it represents the same thing.

Do I think everyday police officers should be kitted out in ballistic plates, wearing balaclavas, and doing the jtfsniperninja thing? No.
But I do think they should have access to equipment they MAY need, and have the training BEFOREHAND. If that means having a drone and MRAP in every major city (or within a few hours of travel time), then so be it. Should police be walking the streets with assault rifles? No, but there should be one available close at hand.

Just my opinion, of course. 
 

Scoobie Newbie

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Amnesty International has for the first time sent a team to a spot in the USA. That should say something. Do the cops need every tool available?  Yes. They also need proper training and proper mindset. You can't think of the people you serve as animals.
 

Dkeh

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Sheep Dog AT said:
Amnesty International has for the first time sent a team to a spot in the USA. That should say something. Do the cops need every tool available?  Yes. They also need proper training and proper mindset. You can't think of the people you serve as animals.

Agreed 100%. Is the mindset of the police that these people are the enemy? Possibly. It is easy to make that mistake when you see the face of hatred mirrored across a crowd.

I think part of it is due to the large number of baby boomers retiring, and the ranks being swelled with younger, more immature, and more desensitized  officers. I don't have any stats, but that is my opinion.
 

Scoobie Newbie

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Good article by a former cop.
http://m.vice.com/read/a-former-police-chief-speaks-out-against-police-brutality-818?utm_source=vicetwitterus
 

Kilo_302

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recceguy said:
You're quoting from a sensationalist, extreme left wing magazine. What did you expect?

No one in the community? Pretty ballsy statement, speaking for an entire population.

The whole system is racist? Your own lopsided bias is showing. Maybe you're the racist. :dunno:

Better tone down your rhetoric and take a sugar pill for that bitterness that's eating you up.

You're still on thin ice for previous outbursts.

---Staff---


That article is citing academic studies, not drawing these conclusions out of thin air. I don't know about you, but I hear Stanford is a reputable school. And when I say the "whole system is racist" I mean the US justice system. This is hardly controversial, as study after study bears this out (see below), so I am not going to tone down my "rhetoric." Nor am I bitter. I am a white male living in Canada. What in the world do I have to be bitter about?


https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/news/2170-new-study-by-professor-david-s-abrams-confirms#.U_NR7ekg-70

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/07/23/372400/newark-police-racially-biased-study/

http://www.civilrights.org/publications/justice-on-trial/

I can only presume that when you say "outburst" you are referring to the instances where we have seriously disagreed on this forum. So if I am still on "thin ice" because we had words in February 2013 I would suggest it is you, not I, who is bitter.
 

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There isnt the proliferation of armoured vehicles in Canada that they have in the states. Yes they have at least one in all the provinces- Im not sure why that is too much? New Bruinswick just showed how necessary they are- so much so that there was NOT ENOUGH and Brinks trucks had to be brought in and rented. They have their role.

We need to keep a jaundiced eye on the subject in Canada but we are far from being "Militarized". That said- we need to ensure that the roles and equipment are justified. Anyone who manages a budget for buying kit knows that their is always "new and shiny"- and a non-stop flow of people trying to sell you the next revolutionary idea. And with a wind down overseas- the police are the big budgets being sold to.
 

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Kilo_302 said:
That article is citing academic studies, not drawing these conclusions out of thin air. I don't know about you, but I hear Stanford is a reputable school. And when I say the "whole system is racist" I mean the US justice system. This is hardly controversial, as study after study bears this out (see below), so I am not going to tone down my "rhetoric." Nor am I bitter. I am a white male living in Canada. What in the world do I have to be bitter about?


https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/news/2170-new-study-by-professor-david-s-abrams-confirms#.U_NR7ekg-70

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/07/23/372400/newark-police-racially-biased-study/

http://www.civilrights.org/publications/justice-on-trial/

I can only presume that when you say "outburst" you are referring to the instances where we have seriously disagreed on this forum. So if I am still on "thin ice" because we had words in February 2013 I would suggest it is you, not I, who is bitter.

So, I guess 'the whole system is racist' also pertains to the US Supreme Court. Is Clarence Thomas racist against whites or are you suggesting he's an Uncle Tom?

I guess when Eric Holder announced he was putting the Newark PF under investigation and a three year watch, he means to leave out people of colour because his office is racist?

Regarding your links (yes, I read them)

Given what graduates from universities today, Professors can be suspect about where they lean and what they teach.

Press agencies are a 'Blood\ racial controversy' leads and false over the top, and sometimes outright lies, misinformation, collusion and fabrication of stories is not that uncommon in order to keep a hot topic going and increase advertising revenue. It's been stated many times, the MSN has moved from reporting fact and letting readers judge, to manufacturing and massaging stories to tell their readers and watchers what their CEO want them to think.

Civil Rights Organizations? I have no real opinion on them, other than they appear to be a self licking ice cream cone and have their own extremists and racists. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson come to mind.

Studies and polls, which you must agree, decide on the outcome they want and then build the questions\ information around it. They will elicit whatever you want them to. That is common practice.

As to the thin ice issue, which you seem to want to disparage me with and keep going, it has nothing to do with me or personal opinion. It's based on PMs, report to Mods and privileged conversations. Just stay cool and it goes nowhere, it was merely a friendly warning.
 

Dkeh

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Hyperbole aside, I don't think this overly affects anything at this point. From what I understand, the officer didn't know anything about any shoplifting at the time of the stop.
 

Infantryman2b

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I don't see how beefing up American police is at all wrong considering the criminals and gangsters these days are carrying automatic assault rifles and heavy machine guns. Are they supposed to just continue using hand guns and riding around in lightly if at all armoured patrol cars? When a large population is rioting and looting in a country where firearms are plenty I think its fair that the police are as well armed and protected as possible. Gun violence is to much of a norm in America for the police not to be as equipped as possible. Its not like there patrolling the streets in APC type vehicles on the regular. Certain circumstances call for certain measures, and I fully support the police. 
 

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Kilo_302 said:
This isn't being report by the mainstream media just yet, but it's looking pretty bad for the Ferguson PD.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/08/18/ferguson-pd-busted/


What about this video and story that has also be ignored by MSM which corroborates the Police's story.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/08/17/He-Kept-Coming-Toward-Him-Video-in-Aftermath-of-Michael-Brown-Shooting-Describes-the-Incident

Transcript via Theconservativetreehouse.com:
    #1 How’d he get from there to there?

    #2 Because he ran, the police was still in the truck – cause he was like over the truck

    {crosstalk}

    #2 But him and the police was both in the truck, then he ran – the police got out and ran after him

    {crosstalk}

    #2 Then the next thing I know he doubled back toward him cus - the police had his gun drawn already on him –

    #1. Oh, the police got his gun

    #2 The police kept dumpin on him, and I’m thinking the police kept missing – he like – be like – but he kept coming toward him

    {crosstalk}

    #2 Police fired shots – the next thing I know – the police was missing

    #1 The Police?

    #2 The Police shot him

    #1 Police?

    #2 The next thing I know … I’m thinking … the dude started running … (garbled something about “he took it from him”)
 

jpjohnsn

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Infantryman2b said:
I don't see how beefing up American police is at all wrong considering the criminals and gangsters these days are carrying automatic assault rifles and heavy machine guns. Are they supposed to just continue using hand guns and riding around in lightly if at all armoured patrol cars? When a large population is rioting and looting in a country where firearms are plenty I think its fair that the police are as well armed and protected as possible. Gun violence is to much of a norm in America for the police not to be as equipped as possible. Its not like there patrolling the streets in APC type vehicles on the regular. Certain circumstances call for certain measures, and I fully support the police.
Doraville Georgia (population 8330) must be an absolute hotbed for gang violence:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAMhv7J39KM
 

The Bread Guy

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Now those wild & crazy Anonymous funsters are jumping into the fray ...

We have the web page - "Anonymous Operation Ferguson" - as well as the Twitter feed - @OpFerguson  - a Twitter call for support ....
ACTION ALERT: Please donate food, water, bike helmets, bulletproof vests, first aid kits, ear plugs, and goggles to protesters in Ferguson.
.... as well as a National Day of Action
dayofaction.jpg

THAT'LL help calm things down ....
 
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