Money for Health Care

[canuck101]

Well i hope there is some money left over after this meeting. He seems to be giving in to the premiers.  We better be sitting on a crap load of surplus money or he is going to ask every department to find savings. You know who is going to look at first.

here is the website. http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1095072266881_286/?hub=CTVNewsAt11

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

It's not the amount of money that is the problem, it's HOW the money spent (i.e., poorly) ... but it's much easier for the politicians to claim numbers (regardless of how creative the accounting to arrive at them was) than to actually address the systemic problems that will only be exacerbated by throwing more money at them..

 

[dutchie]

Does anyone else feel that while watching/reading about the debate, that it's kinda like watching a group of burglars divying up your possesions? Either way, we are not likely to see a marked improvement in the quality of our health care system.

I do like the IDEA of universal Pharma-care though.....we'll see what happens there.

 

[Kirkhill]

I don't like the idea of a National Pharmacare Programme.   Please leave the money in my own pocket.   I'll handle the situation myself.

Greg Weston http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Ottawa/Greg_Weston/2004/09/14/628281.html argues that we spend on average $5500 per year per family on health care.   He is wrong.

$88,000,000,000 Government Spending + $38,000,000,000 Private Insurance and Direct from OUR Pockets

Total

$126,000,000,000 spent on health annually

31,000,000 Canadians

Net Effect

$4,064 spent per Canadian per year

I have a family of 4.

4x $4,064 =

$16,258 per year for my family


My wife and I control about $4000 per year of that expenditure (thankfully that is a lifetime average and not this year's expenditures).   The other $12,000 is spent by bureaucrats.

What am I getting for my money again?

Leave the 12k in my pocket.   Reduce the taxes and let me handle my own health plan.  

By the way on a per capita basis 4k per year, over 75 years, would leave me with a lifetime pool of $300,000 to invest.

Buy a fair chunk of care with that.

 

[canuck101]

They are all grand standing and playing to the camera's.  There needs to be real reform in the health care system.  there is still to much administration and not enough front line workers.  My father has cancer and ever time he goes into the hospital he has to fill in the same forms over again even if they have him on file.  Not everyone needs a MRI when there are cheaper ways to get the information but people hear about a new piece of equipment and think it must be better when the old procedures work fine.

 

[canuck101]

The provinces want new money and don't want any strings attached.  The Ontario government already has waivered on the way that they are going to use the new health care premium that they are charging everyone in Ontario. I don't think we can trust them with more money. the money will be used for other things that are not health related.

 

[dutchie]

Kirkhill:

I can appreciate your view on the large sum of money each Canadian spends on Health Care, and I won't even argue the numbers you used. But are you suggesting that we abolish universal health care? The reason why I ask this is that the link you provided was to an article that outlined the cost of medicare, not pharmacare. You seem to object to what you're paying now, ergo, I assume you would prefer to 'go it your own' regarding your and your families medical care costs.

I for one like medicare, and feel it is THE integral social program of Canada, but certainly not free of its own problems (hence the reform needed). You might be able to afford your own medical bills now, but what happens if you or any other Canadian gets Cancer and can't work? As Canadians, we all pay a moderate amount so that those with huge expenses don't go without care and die.

The costs might be high, and as individuals we might get lucky year to year and avoid huge bills, but the day one of us comes down with a bad disease or even has a car accident, most of us would be completely hooped. Insurance is not an option for most, the argument lies in whether we want private (US-style) or public (Canadian-style)insurance.

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

The Canadian Healthcare system is a disaster: it doesn't provide anywhere near 'universal' coverage and has come at an outrageous (and unsustainable) cost.  In a single word, it is Stalinist*: and the rest of his economic programmes haven't worked out too well, either.  Even the most hardcore Socialists seem to have abandoned their former claim that it is a "model for the world" as exactly zero other countries regard it as a model worth copying.

However American bus-tour seniors are grateful to Canadian taxpayers for subsidizing their drug costs.  :-[


*ie: bureaucratic, authoritarian exercise of state power and mechanistic application of Marxist-Leninist principles.

 

[dutchie]

I agree, more or less, with John in that the Health Care system is in need on reform, but I still think it is worth saving. I certainly don't feel quite as offended as John seems to be. I guess I'll chalk it up to a wee bit of hyperbole on his part.

Interesting series on Global about some nation's health care system that ARE models. France was on last night, and their system seems to work for them......

 

[Infanteer]

Here is my thoughts on Health Care and needed reforms:

http://army.ca/forums/threads/18097.0.html

 

[dutchie]

Well said (again) Infanteer. For $20/hour, that shitter better shine like a diamond.

BUT-lets not shi*can the whole thing because we let the provincial govts (mostly left-wing) approve outrageous CBA's for non-health care hospital workers. I say, keep cutting the non-skilled worker's pay until it gets to something comperable to the private sector, and then the govt will be in a much better position to deliver good, affordable health care to everyone.

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

Caesar: Geez, you seem like a good guy, I'm glad we agree on at least one thing! 

But about the Heathcare System, I am more irritated than offended.  Without a word of exaggeration, we are talking about a system that any first-year economics student could tell you was bound to fail and yet the politicians (and the rest) scream blue murder if you try to change by doing anything other than throwing more money at the problem ...

Didn't see the TV special, but I'm not sure that France's health care system should be a model for anything other than how NOT to run one: how many thousands died from a "heatwave" that was about as bad as a typical August in Toronto?

Infanteer; I was going to mention Singapore's system (studied it briefly at school), but I see you've brought it up already (I didn't realize that US Corps. were using it, too)!  As well, I think they have coverage for "catastrophic" costs (i.e., over budget).  Caesar; are they covering Singapore on Global?  That might be worth checking out, in a Canadian context.

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

keep cutting the non-skilled worker's pay until it gets to something comperable to the private sector

A very good start: I've yet to hear a coherent defense of how outsourcing a hospital's laundry at half the cost of in-house service (for example) represents a deterioration in "quality" of health care.

 

[dutchie]

John: The Global thing will cover France (no wait lists, combo public/private), Germany (efficient hospitals), Holland (don't know what it's about, other than 'alternative thinking'), Britain (had similar problems to us, but fixed or is fixing them), Switzerland (can't remember their thing).....and I think that's it.

Last night was the first instalment. It's on the 6 o'clock news. If you're from BC, you should get it. Don't know if it is going to be on in other areas.

With the amount of cash being consumed by the system, we should have zero problem providing good health care, with minimal or no waiting lists, and still give health care workers a decent wage. We're are so far off that it's ridiculous. But I still want the service, I still think it's worth saving, and I still think that it's possible. Clearly, if we do nothing, the system will take that decision out of our hands, as it will collapse.

Re:"I've yet to hear a coherent defense of how outsourcing a hospital's laundry at half the cost of in-house service (for example) represents a deterioration in "quality" of health care"........no kidding. I would prefer it be done by workers in the hospital, or at least in the province, but not at twice the cost. Those dollars could go to some sick grandma's heart pills, or some guys prostate surgery, etc, etc. Too many people are getting very sick and even dying so we can pay someone stupid money to wash poop from a sheet.
Oh, and I'm equally shocked at our agreement considering our last tete-a-tete.

 

[Kirkhill]

From Ceaser

As Canadians, we all pay a moderate amount so that those with huge expenses don't go without care and die.

Ceaser, $16,000 a year is NOT a moderate amount.  I lived in the States for a couple of years and paid for personal health insurance and even with matching funds from my employer and personal out of pocket expenses I paid nothing like those types of sums.  I was the sole bread-winner at the time, my wife not being allowed to work in the States.

What $16,000 represents now, and that actually is less affordable under my current circumstances, is an insurance premium of $1300 per month.  The fact that a $1300 premium gets me and my family the type of care that it does is the cause of my "aggravation".

I am not against supporting those that are unable to pay the freight.  I would fully support, based on a means test, paying the premiums for the indigent and catastrophic costs for the many.  

What I have a problem with is this government insurance and supply monopoly, bureaucrats rationing care and denying me the opportunity to purchase such care as I wish to ensure my family's future.

Bottom line, I would rather have a choice of three or four private suppliers working for profit, sure in the knowledge that at least one of them is trying to gouge me, than trust some faceless, grey bureaucrat buried in some dungeon someplace rationing my family's care "dispassionately" and delivering it six months too late.

By the way I am 48 years old, have two teen-agers, have buried both of my parents and my father-in-law due to cancer.  I have had ample opportunity to see both the Canadian and US systems at work.

Notwithstanding the problems with car insurance, I would sooner use car insurance as  a model than the current mess in which we find ourselves.

Rant Ends, Over.....

 

[unknownsoldier]

Well i hope there is some money left over after this meeting. He seems to be giving in to the premiers.   We better be sitting on a crap load of surplus money or he is going to ask every department to find savings. You know who is going to look at first.

here is the website. http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1095072266881_286/?hub=CTVNewsAt11

Oh! every governmet in power should treat itself like a business enterprise. To those who studied accounting and auditing, the accountant or the manager makes sure that the company will not suffer a loss. Common sense. If you keep on dangling welfare to the people [who would refuse welfare unless one is as patriotic as CF. No one unless they know what overspending can entail] In chicago public hospitals they treat malignant tumor free. Including morphine that calms down tremors. If we pass a law on economic SABOTAGE and Lee Kwan Yew will testify that Mike Harris ,Gordon Campbell and Brian Mulroney did the right thing, who is guilty then? Liberals, Conservatives, New Democrats,Socialists or Communists?? I am not sure of the first two mentioned. But i am sure of Communists!

 

[childs56]

well we all know why us military folk in ont have pay health care prems now. got to love a gov't that takes form one pocket and puts in the other

 

[Cloud Cover]

Here is my thoughts on Health Care and needed reforms:

http://army.ca/forums/threads/18097.0.html

Infanteer, have you effectively summarized and captured the essence of Code Blue in the above thread, and is the book worth while reading beyond what you have posted?

 

[canuck101]

Every member of the CF has to pay into employment insurance and can not collect it if i remember right. :-\

 

[Infanteer]

Infanteer, have you effectively summarized and captured the essence of Code Blue in the above thread, and is the book worth while reading beyond what you have posted?

I would pick it up.  Pretty interesting; the doctor is basically approaching Health Care reform from an economical viewpoint (hence the consumer/provider relationship).  If anything, it is a fresh idea as opposed to the current political discussions going on (we need more money!).