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New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

Karel Doorman

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MarkOttawa said:
At this point I don't think any Canadian gov't would dare try to change the arrangement with Irving (other than ship numbers), and delay the program again for lord knows how much longer.

Mark
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Hope so,for you all in Canada,your navy needs new ships(and fast,i might add  :whistle: )

we also need new ships,but at least contract is signed for the new oiler,contract will be signed shortly for the M-replacement(hopefully the Walrus replacement will follow soon after that)
 

Underway

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Karel Doorman said:
OH-OOW here we go again(not good)

PBO to examine $60 billion price tag of new warships and compare to other less expensive foreign programs

[link removed by staff to comply with Site Guidelines]

Can i give a suggestion?

Maybe join the Dutch/Belgian replacement M-class(sorry just joking)


Ps i thought the Fremm design was kicked out due to not following procedures(or am i wrong in thinking that?)

Honestly that's a bit of a joke.  Type 31 program is a significantly less effective vessel with self defence capacity equal or lower then one of our current frigates (particularly in the underwater domain).  The FREMM is cheaper because of the government subsidization of the shipyards in other aspects.  I don't think the PBO has the capacity to understand these issues.  They are pretty black and white.
 

Navy_Pete

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If you look at both the AG/PBO audits to date, they have all generally found that the costs are not crazy given the policy/programmatic restrictions for the NSS. There has also been a lot of work done on the validation of the IRB/VP program with all the economic spinoffs, and once you include those offsets (like $0.30 of every dollar of labour going directly back to the GoC as taxes) it's kind of a no-brainer. A big chunk of the estimate is also contingency, so it's not like the $60B is a big check to Irving. Taxes alone on that is billions.

The FREMM bid was cheaper because it left off a lot, with basically every dollar spent leaving Canada, and resulted in zero strategic shipbuilding capability. We still would have spent billions more on infrastructure, training, infrastructure etc, had to negotiate for all the IP/TDP and other critical things. It was a pretty cheap publicity tactic and hope someone high up in GoC told them to piss off after that stunt.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Some more details on the Type 26 with a mention of Canadian content in regards to the boat/cargo handling system.

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/the-type-26-frigate-mission-bay-part-1-design-and-development/?fbclid=IwAR2BfwRXSiP0uZPdpivrNYYQzIh91iRi3NV4r8rQJU6gefWVT89EiWqNFtI
 

Spencer100

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Colin P said:
Some more details on the Type 26 with a mention of Canadian content in regards to the boat/cargo handling system.

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/the-type-26-frigate-mission-bay-part-1-design-and-development/?fbclid=IwAR2BfwRXSiP0uZPdpivrNYYQzIh91iRi3NV4r8rQJU6gefWVT89EiWqNFtI

I that pic you see the Merlin in the background.  What is the size difference between the Merlin and Cyclone?  I think they are in the same class of helicopter.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Merlin has a folding tailrotor I don't believe the Cyclone does?

Cyclone
Length: 56 ft 2 in (17.12 m) fuselage S-92
Width: 17 ft 3 in (5.26 m) fuselage
Height: 15 ft 5 in (4.70 m) S-92

Merlin
Length: 19.53 m (64 ft 1 in) fuselage (can't find the folded length)
Height: 6.62 m (21 ft 9 in)
Empty weight: 10,500 kg (23,149 lb)
 

Cloud Cover

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Spencer100 said:
I that pic you see the Merlin in the background.  What is the size difference between the Merlin and Cyclone?  I think they are in the same class of helicopter.

Is that pic of the Merlin in the hangar or the container storage space aft of the mission bay.
 

Cloud Cover

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quadrapiper said:
Doing a very cursory Wikipedia cross-check, I'm also curious about what she's doing with an extra 5000ish tons of displacement compared to Bunker Hill - logically that and the extra 30' of beam are for stability, but not sure.

Staterooms for everybody?  A lot of that forward space was actually for the machinery for the two guns in between the 8 x 10 cell PVLS, so I figure they have quite the cross fit gym built in there now.
Some good cross section diagrams and an outline of her very bulky superstructure compared to the DDG: https://www.bluebird-electric.net/aircraft_carriers/Zumwalt_Stealth_Destroyer_Raytheon_21st_Century_Northrop_Grumman_General_Dynamics.htm

Edit: the span from just aft of A mount to just forward of B mount is 260 feet!
 

Underway

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Colin P said:
Merlin has a folding tailrotor I don't believe the Cyclone does?

Cyclone
Length: 56 ft 2 in (17.12 m) fuselage S-92
Width: 17 ft 3 in (5.26 m) fuselage
Height: 15 ft 5 in (4.70 m) S-92

Merlin
Length: 19.53 m (64 ft 1 in) fuselage (can't find the folded length)
Height: 6.62 m (21 ft 9 in)
Empty weight: 10,500 kg (23,149 lb)

Cyclone does have a folding tail.  The Merlin is quite the choncky boy compared to the Cyclone.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Well it seems the US Coastguard is in the same boat as well are https://www.marinelink.com/news/us-icebreaker-suffers-fire-engine-failure-481220?utm_source=MR-ENews-Weekdays-2020-08-26&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=MR-ENews
 

Uzlu

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Newfoundland design company enters teaming agreement on Arctic icebreaker shipbuilding pitch

A Newfoundland and Labrador design company whose growth has been fueled by the federal government's National Shipbuilding Strategy hopes to soon get another opportunity to make an impression.

Seaspan Shipyards and Genoa Design announced a teaming agreement in a news release issued Wednesday. Seaspan, based in Vancouver, B.C., is building non-combat vessels for government as part of the national strategy. The company is close to completing its third offshore fisheries science vessel and is also working on an offshore oceanographic science vessel, joint support ships, medium endurance multi-tasked vessels and offshore patrol vessels.

The new teaming agreement with Genoa Design for 3D modeling and production design services concerns Seaspan's bid to regain the contract to replace Canadian Coast Guard Ship (CCGS) Louis S. St-Laurent — the only ship in the Canadian fleet capable of year-round operations in the Arctic. That job was initially part of the deal when government named Seaspan an initial strategic partner in 2011 for the multibillion-dollar strategy alongside Irving Shipbuilding in Halifax. The latter company was tasked to build six Arctic and offshore patrol ships (AOPS) and 15 new warships for the navy in Nova Scotia.

Last year, Ottawa decided it would re-open bidding to replace the icebreaker. In December, Public Services and Procurement Canada (PSPC) announced Chantier Davie Canada, a shipbuilder in Quebec, had been pre-qualified to become the third strategic partner for the strategy in order to build six program icebreakers. That company has also publically expressed its interest in the contract to replace CCGS Louis S. St-Laurent with the eventual CCGS John G. Diefenbaker.

Vote of confidence

Gina Pecore, CEO for Genoa Design, said the teaming agreement and vote of confidence from Seaspan means a lot to her company, which has grown from 20 employees to more than 220 since joining the shipbuilder's supply chain in 2014. Genoa has designed five vessels for Seaspan.

"This signifies the next step in an ongoing, very strong relationship with Seaspan," Pecore told The Telegram. "Seaspan has been extremely conscientious in working with Genoa to support our maturity in this program, and it opened the door to what's next. And what's next for us is that polar icebreaker."

Seaspan has invested $185 million in its shipyard. In the new release, the company stated it was "purpose-built" to deliver the polar icebreaker, adding its workforce, facilities and capacity make it the only shipyard in Canada capable of meeting the 2029 deadline to deliver CCGS John G. Diefenbaker.

"I would say we have a very high degree of confidence that we are the right partner for government," said Seaspan CEO Mark Lamarre. "And with respect to delivering (the icebreaker) on time and to the Canadian requirements, irrespective of what other companies' marketing claims might be, I would say I can explain what it takes to be successful in meeting this challenge.

“You need a modern shipyard that meets the Government of Canada's target state requirements and a level of investment. We need a continued investment in the shipyard to ensure that we are up to date with current technologies and that our work force is trained. We need a hot production line ... we're delivering our third ship and working on our fourth."

He pointed to a third-party study on capacity at the shipyard as proof it can handle everything already on its plate while also working to complete the polar icebreaker.

"We're the only shipyard in Canada that has the work force capabilities, capacity, pan-Canadian supply chain and we're the only shipyard that can build the icebreaker entirely in Canada by Canadians on the Canadian Coast Guard's urgent timeline," Lamarre said.

Newfoundland connections

Seaspan announced in June another team player for the polar icebreaker pitch with ties to Newfoundland and Labrador. Heddle Shipyards has a teaming agreement with Seaspan to fabricate ship modules at its three Ontario shipyards. The agreement would provide some work related to the strategy program to Heddle's site in Mount Pearl, where Genoa Design is also based.

Lamarre characterized his company's relationship with Genoa Design as a trusted partnership.

"I would say we share common interests in investment and technology and our approaches to management," he said, adding Genoa's project-specific capabilities make the company a good fit for working on the polar icebreaker. Genoa is also a sub-contractor for the United States' Polar Security Program.

Pecore said continuing to build on its relationship with Seaspan is not only important to the company's growth in Newfoundland and Labrador, but also to fellow sub-contractors in the province that have built their businesses up through work with the offshore oil and gas sector.

"There's a lot of capacity and a lot of expertise that fits here in terms of supply chain and ice expertise," Pecore said. "We've proven, over the past, almost a decade now, that we've been able to grow through some pretty difficult times by building close partnerships with our customers, and in particular with Seaspan, and then leverage that to more export potential. It's so important to us that we have long-term relationships with our customers in this way."

PSPC issued a request for information in February for the polar icebreaker build. Lamarre said everything is in place to start design work early next year if Seaspan is successful.
https://www.journalpioneer.com/business/regional-business/newfoundland-design-company-enters-teaming-agreement-on-arctic-icebreaker-shipbuilding-pitch-497504/
 

MarkOttawa

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Uzlu said:
https://www.journalpioneer.com/business/regional-business/newfoundland-design-company-enters-teaming-agreement-on-arctic-icebreaker-shipbuilding-pitch-497504/

Seaspan still trying to win back CCG polar icebreaker contract by spreading work around in politically useful places:

'We felt that we won': Vancouver shipyard fights second icebreaker battle

Mark Lamarre is making his latest pitch for why Ottawa should choose Seaspan ULC to build the Canadian Coast Guard’s next flagship, the CCGS John G. Diefenbaker.

The pitch involves an arrangement in which, if the Vancouver shipbuilder gets the contract to build the polar icebreaker, it will hire Newfoundland-based Genoa Design International to do part of the work.

The aim of Lamarre’s presentation is to highlight both Genoa’s potential and how giving the contract to Seaspan, which announced a similar deal with Ontario-based Heddle Marine in June, will benefit different parts of the country.

Yet there is something else to his spiel, an underlying frustration over the fact he is having to sell his yard as the best place to build the desperately needed polar icebreaker. The source of that frustration: Seaspan already won the work once before.

"I just want to underscore again that this is work that we felt that we won," Lamarre tells The Canadian Press before repeating the point less than a minute later. "This is work that we believe we've won."

The Diefenbaker was first announced by Stephen Harper’s Conservative government in 2008 and awarded to Seaspan in October 2011, one of seven ships to be built by the Vancouver shipyard through Ottawa’s multibillion-dollar shipbuilding strategy.

The plan at the time was for the entire deal, valued at $8 billion for all seven ships, to usher in a new era of stability and prosperity for shipbuilding on Canada’s West Coast while delivering much-needed vessels for the Coast Guard and Navy.

The Diefenbaker was arguably the crown jewel of the package. Originally budgeted at $721 million, the polar icebreaker was supposed to be delivered by 2017 and replace the Coast Guard’s flagship, the CCGS Louis S. St-Laurent.

But scheduling conflicts, technical problems and other issues scuttled the timeline and budget — which was increased to $1.3 billion in 2013 and is now under review again — before the government lifted the ship from Seaspan’s order book in August 2019.

Ottawa asked shipyards in March to explain how and why they should get the contract. Seaspan and Quebec rival Chantier Davie, which lost out of the competition that saw Seaspan get the Diefenbaker in 2011, were among the respondents.

Still, it’s clear Lamarre doesn’t think there should be any question about which yard should be tasked with building the vessel.

"As I said, we competed for the work in 2011 and won the right to the non-combat vessels," he said. "Since then, we've invested into the one of the most modern shipyards in North America."

The company says those investments have totalled $185 million over the past nine years and were specifically made for the purpose of building the icebreaker — and Lamarre says not winning the contract "changes our economic outlook."

"We are a profitable business now," he says. "And we have a program of work in front of us, but I just want to underscore again that this is work that we felt that we won.... And it's what we based our decision-making on for investing in this program."

Asked whether Seaspan would sue the government if it didn’t get the contract, Lamarre says: "It’s too early for that."

The government has not provided much of an explanation for why it took the Diefenbaker away from Seaspan, substituting in 16 smaller vessels that the Vancouver shipyard argues were already promised to it by the previous Conservative government.

Ottawa has said it wants to make sure the icebreaker is built "in the most efficient manner," noting the increasing age of the Coast Guard’s entire icebreaker fleet. It has not said when a decision might be made.

Davie is considered Seaspan’s chief competitor for the Diefenbaker. After losing out of the competition for work in 2011, the rival yard has since charged back and is now in line to build six medium icebreakers for the Coast Guard.

Yet even as Seaspan has faced continuing difficulty delivering on its schedule, Davie still hasn’t delivered two of three second-hand icebreakers it pushed the Liberal government to buy two years ago.

The Quebec company nonetheless insists it — not Seaspan — is best placed to build the Diefenbaker, particularly given it is already in line to build the other six icebreakers.

"As the national icebreaker centre, we will consolidate experience, expertise and skills at Canada’s largest and highest capacity shipyard to create world-class icebreakers in a competitive and sustainable manner," Davie spokesman Frederick Boisvert said in a statement.

"As has always been the case, Davie is the only shipbuilder capable of delivering the polar icebreaker."

Lamarre argues that with the investments made in its Vancouver shipyard and its new partnership with Genoa, Seaspan is ready to start work on the Diefenbaker now — and that Ottawa should stop wasting time and just move ahead with its original plan.

"I don't know why you would give it to anyone else other than Seaspan," he said.
https://www.timescolonist.com/we-felt-that-we-won-vancouver-shipyard-fights-second-icebreaker-battle-1.24206468

Mark
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MilEME09

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All I hear is delays, they better put penalties in for delays to construction, etc..
 

Uzlu

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Shipbuilding industry pushes back as federal government shops for used icebreaker

Shipbuilding association says the domestic industry needs the work

The federal government is in the market for another used icebreaker that could be converted for use by the Canadian Coast Guard on the Great Lakes — much to the dismay of shipbuilders across the country.

A request for proposals to acquire an existing light icebreaker was posted on the government's procurement website in mid-September.

The timing is interesting. Federal decision-makers have known for five years that the coast guard needs such a vessel for the region.

The request for proposals — which closes at the end of October — was posted as U.S. lawmakers began to push bipartisan legislation through Congress to strengthen the U.S. Coast Guard's capacity to break ice and keep commerce flowing on the Great Lakes.

The plan for Canada to buy a used icebreaker follows a separate decision by Transport Canada to purchase a used ferry from Spain on an emergency basis.

Build them here, says industry

The Canadian Marine Industry and Shipbuilding Association (CMISA), which represents most of the marine suppliers and shipyards across the country, said both decisions represent a loss of domestic jobs and at least $250 million in federal spending that could have gone into a Canadian economy hard hit by the coronavirus.

"We're of the strong belief that vessels such as light icebreakers can and should be built in Canada," said Colin Cooke, president and chief executive officer of the shipbuilding association.

"We have the capacity. We have the skilled trades. We have the expertise, the technical expertise. We have the shipyards. And that was what the point of the National Shipbuilding Strategy was all about."

That shipbuilding strategy is supposed to direct government work to Canadian shipyards. Cooke said the plan to purchase an existing icebreaker and the deal to acquire a former Spanish ferry would both be unacceptable in normal times — but they're even less acceptable now.

"We are in a COVID time when we're looking for all sorts of ways to make sure that people are employed, that businesses are able to survive — I won't say thrive, I will say survive — through the lockdowns caused by this pandemic," he said.

Public Services and Procurement Canada was asked for comment last Thursday but did not respond.

The tender for the light icebreaker, posted online Sept. 18, describes the purchase as a necessary interim step for the coast guard to "bridge the gap while awaiting the delivery of dedicated new vessels."

Significantly, the request for proposals noted that the need for such a ship was identified five years ago — around the same time a comprehensive analysis warned that the coast guard icebreaking fleet was in dire straits and in need of immediate replacement.

"In 2015-16 the CCG identified a requirement for interim icebreaking capabilities to fill gaps in capacity resulting from ships being temporarily withdrawn from service" for refit and life extension, said the tender.

Two years ago, the Liberal government concluded a deal worth $827 million with Chantier Davie of Levis, Que., which operates the Davie shipyard, to refit three medium-sized commercial icebreakers for the coast guard.

Used icebreakers could be scarce

Tim Choi, a University of Calgary shipbuilding expert, said this recent tender suggests the federal government is operating on the flawed assumption that there is an abundance of used icebreakers on the market.

The deal with the Davie shipyard was an anomaly and federal officials "got lucky" last time because there happened to be three vessels available, he said.

Choi said he believes the federal government isn't likely to be so fortunate this time: his research suggests there may be only one light icebreaker out there that would fit in the bill — in Finland — and it's not clear the Finns are ready to part with it.

"There are very few requirements for a vessel like that outside of Canada and the United States in the Great Lakes, St. Lawrence region," said Choi. "It's not like there's a used car lot where you can just go out and buy these things."

The shipbuilding association said it can make a strong case for a fast-track build in Canada. Choi said he believes procurement services may be forced in that direction anyway because of market conditions.

In mid-September, three U.S. senators — Tammy Baldwin (D-WI), Todd Young (R-IN) and Gary Peters (D-MI) — introduced the Great Lakes Winter Commerce Act.

The bipartisan legislation is expected to codify the U.S. Coast Guard's icebreaking operations on the Great Lakes and, more importantly, increase the size of its fleet.

"Inadequate icebreaking capacity in the Great Lakes is costing us thousands of American jobs and millions in business revenue," said Baldwin in a statement. "We must boost our icebreaking capacity in the Great Lakes to keep our maritime commerce moving."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/shipbuilding-icebreaker-coast-guard-great-lakes-1.5751143
 

MilEME09

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Yes build here  even though our order books are full for 10 years, but the coast guard can wait right?

We are at max capacity pretty much, any additional vessels should go off shore. I am sure south Korea could build us a sizable ice breaker fleet at a good price before a single Canadian one.

 

suffolkowner

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It's probably not helping that Davie is behind schedule on the other two icebreaker conversions. Covid probably a bit of a factor and then there's this

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/lead-paint-icebreakers-coast-guard-davie-1.5748295
 

Colin Parkinson

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Covid impacts the supply chain that supports the shipyard. Need a valve to finish a module? Do you wait for that valve that's been delayed or add the module and work around installing the valve later even if it's harder?
 

dapaterson

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Threaten to lay off all your workforce, increase fixed price contracts, and deliver arguably substandard product seems to work for ISI.
 

Weinie

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MilEME09 said:
Yes build here  even though our order books are full for 10 years, but the coast guard can wait right?

We are at max capacity pretty much, any additional vessels should go off shore. I am sure south Korea could build us a sizable ice breaker fleet at a good price before a single Canadian one.

Yeah, and at a better price and better capacity.........pfffftt that idea is doomed.
 

suffolkowner

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Colin P said:
Covid impacts the supply chain that supports the shipyard. Need a valve to finish a module? Do you wait for that valve that's been delayed or add the module and work around installing the valve later even if it's harder?

For sure although I think the one ship was supposed to be done before Covid. My son is pricing a building out in steel right now partially because the price of wood is 2.5x more, apparently due to the mills shutting down because they thought there would be no demand(?) I'm not sure if that's an Ontario thing or what but it shows the extent of the impact
 
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