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New Littoral Combat Ships for the CF?

CBH99

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I apologize if this topic has already been discussed, I looked through the Equipment forum for quite some time and could not find any posts directly relating to this.  If this has already infact been discussed, by all means - feel free to get rid of it.

For those of you unaware, the new US Navy Littoral Combat Ship is a vessel designed to be highly automated - saving on crew requirements - and able to operate in shallow waters, such as the coastlines of Africa.  They are designed to be quick, all weather vessels able to respond to threats closer to the coast, where some of the larger ships can't operate.  They are designed to be highly flexible - dealing with terrorists one day, and supporting ground operations the next.

I was reading an article in the New York Times, and on the US Navy website, that pegs the cost of the new US Navy Littoral Combat Ship at $300 million per ship.  A US politician wants to expand the US Navy from 285 vessels to 313 vessels, providing further flexibility for naval commanders by expanding the fleet with 50 of these Littoral Combat Ships  (LCS for the purpose of this board).

I'm no expert at numbers or costs of shipbuilding, but if the Canadian Forces could tap into an already existing production line - this could save the Canadian Forces millions, or perhaps even billions of dollars. 

Some of the advantages of this could include:

-  An already existing production line, for a vessel already designed. 

-  The shipbuilding capabilities in the US are much more advanced and robust than that of Canadian shipyards, who get their government orders in bulk only periodically.

-  The Canadian Forces could acquire new vessels at an extremely low production cost.  The highly automated vessel also saved on crew requirements, further strengthening the proposal for a Navy that has severe manpower shortages.

-  Fits the requirements for the Navy's "Coastal Patrol Vessel" project.


Disadvantages:

-  It provides no work for Canadian shipyards, except for possible maintainence contracts.

Any thoughts?
 
LINK to specs?


  I somehow doubt our Coatal Patrol Vessel requirements would fit with the Littoral Combat Ship -- but it would fit as part of the SCTF http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/mspa_news/news_e.asp?id=164
 
here are some specs for you Kev....
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/lcs-specs.htm

It should be noted that there are actually 2 LCS in the works for the Americans as noted here: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/lcs.htm

So the real question would be, which design is best suited for our needs? My gut says neither, if the Navy decides they need such a boat why not extend the hulls of the Kingston class MCDV's. It has been mentioned on this board they would have greater top speed if the hulls were extended. This class is already in the system, has the proper draught for close to shore work and there is a structure in place for their operation.

If this is too financially onerous, then there is potential to maybe continue procurement of the ORCA class with some modifications that would enhance brown water surveillance, higher speeds and maybe have some sort of standard flex equipment loadouts (in other words mission specific kit and personnel). It would be a small boat for close to home operation.

The prices involved for the USN LCS program are far too prohibitive for us to pay it too much attention.

My 2 cents,
 
Considering we are gearing up more for an expeditionary capability with the eventual (and hopeful) BHS that Gen Hillier envisions the need for open ocean escorts should be more apparent. I am not saying the LCS is not a worthwhile project, but being a small navy we still need to stick to the basics.
 
If I'm not mistaken the CPF is more than capable and most often utilized as an Escort.  For our AOR's, 280's And US Task groups.  In open ocean and in Litoral waters like the Strait of Hormuz.  It is relatively well equipped to do it too (mind you some of its equipment is becoming dated). 

We need an alternative class that can patrol our coasts that has some teeth (don't forget the north).  The MCDV's have .50 Cals and 40mm taken off the Bonnie.  If its too expensive to refit the MCDV so that its useful too the Navy for more than Officer training (fishing boats can wave and run away when your top speed is 15 knots) then they need to be paid off and we need to find a design that works (mine clearance is not that effective when your mines are using magnets and you are in a steel ship). 

The MCDV should have had the 57mm like the CPF (CPF is under gunned buy NATO standards) and have at least two Harpoons and be capable of 30 plus knots.  That is what makes other country's rethink taking control of Canadian islands in our north.  The world needs to know we are watching thats why we have subs and thats why we need coastal patrol ships.  They would also pick up some of the work load from the CPF.  We are sent to do everything these days and its why our refits and upgrades are put off.

The ORCA its not going to be a capable as some think.  It is going to be mainly officer training and port defence.  It will be faster than the MCDV but it will really be a step down in usefulness.  The MP's have supposedly staked a claim on one.  The east coast will be lucky to see any.  (from what I was reading) MOG 4 running the YAG's is under equipped for what they are mandated to do.  They need double what they have ordered to add on the extra tasks of harbour defence and to give the east coast a few.

None of these issues will be looked at for many years.  The pressent obsession is the JSS/Subs/SCSC there is no money to even consider something like this.

Talk to ya all later,
 
The 57 mm was designed basically as an aa gun (think of it as a big CIWS) with a limited ASuW role if we are involved in shooting at other ships with our Bofors then someone seriously ****** up! As for equipment being dated, yes it is but FELEX will addresss that.

MCDVs should be kept in the mine warfare role and as has been discussed here before an OPV should be seriously looked at. It could be fitted for but it does not need Harpoons where a large caliber(57mm pr 76 mm) and several smaller caliber guns(20-40mm) do the trick as well.

You keep saying none of these proposals will not be looked at, none of us can predict the future. Does Rick Hillier and   Bill Graham consult with you on a regular basis?   Who would have thought we would be seriously considering heavy/medium lift helos and LPDs? I know a lot never saw those coming. We live in interesting times as we have no idea whats around the corner for the CF.
 
I realize what a 57mm is for.  It is still considered small for a frigate.  Ships are all about intimidation.  There tools of the government to show a foreign country & the world A: we're watching what your doing or B: We know your in our waters and we don't like it. 

If any shooting war broke out between to equal sized and capable forces.  All surface ships involved would most likely be sunk or crippled within hours. 

Tactically a big floating piece of steel like a CPF worth somewhere between 1/2 a billion and 1 billion dollars is pretty easy to take out if some one really wanted too.  One mine or torpedo worth a few hundred thousand will take out a ship (most likely the crew too). 
I felt pretty exposed in the Gulf and anywhere there was even the most remote threat.  We wont see them coming until its you or another member of task group is sunk or crippled.  No different then the infantry your not under effective enemy fire till your buddy goes down. 

No I don't have the ear of the CDS but I was pretty gung ho when I got in this outfit too.  I'd think wow we're going to get new ships we're going to get this and that.  It takes them decades to get anything these days.  I've just lost that glow I had when I joined up and learned to hurry up and wait.  Yeah we're looking at new aircraft and ships and tanks but none of these things happen over night and all of these things become low priority for our government if something goes wrong.  Historically Canada has no problems with shutting programs down and even spending more money to do it.  They already did it once with the tanker and the helos. 

I'm not saying these proposals wont be looked at or talked about.  I'm sure in "Fort Fumble" up in Ottawa they talk about these things everyday.  It's just looking and talking in this outfit is much different than action and seeing keels laid down and gear sitting on a tarmac.

Don't get me wrong I love my job.  My cup is just half empty these days when it comes to forthcoming toys for the CF.  I'm just happy to get my training when I'm due and do my job the best I can. 

I like to dream about what if we had this and being part of the process for this and I hope someday I'll be there for the commissioning of a JSS or be a new Snr ET on a FELEX upgraded frigate.  That would most likely be towards the end of my career though.

Again guys I think we should hurry up and wait.  At least then we wont be surprised when it takes 20 years to get what we need.
 
I again disagree NB for the role that the CPF has be optimized for from the Ops Room perspective the 57 mm does just fine. Sure it would be nice to have a bigger gun to conduct NGS and maybe they will rectify that with the SCC but I like knowing there is 1 more weapon system optimized to put lead between me and that sea skimmer.

I never felt exposed at all whilst in the Gulf as I was confident in our gear and what it can do. Are there better ships out there? You bet... but even after the Halifax class being fully operational since the mid 90s its still highly regarded by our allies.
 
Navy_Blue said:
We need an alternative class that can patrol our coasts that has some teeth (don't forget the north).  The MCDV's have .50 Cals and 40mm taken off the Bonnie.  If its too expensive to refit the MCDV so that its useful too the Navy for more than Officer training (fishing boats can wave and run away when your top speed is 15 knots) then they need to be paid off and we need to find a design that works (mine clearance is not that effective when your mines are using magnets and you are in a steel ship). 
Fishing vessels generally do their business at about 8 knots; the fastest of them can eke out 15.  Your point about mine clearance is moot, as nobody does mechanical minesweeping anymore.  Mine clearance today is all about minehunting, which involves sending something (an ROV, divers, dolphins, etc) out in front of the ship to find objects in the water.  The Remote Minehunting System (RMHS) that's been trialed will bring that capability to the Canadian Navy, and the Kingstons will likely be using it, or a variant, within two years.

The MCDV should have had the 57mm like the CPF (CPF is under gunned buy NATO standards) and have at least two Harpoons and be capable of 30 plus knots.  That is what makes other country's rethink taking control of Canadian islands in our north.  The world needs to know we are watching thats why we have subs and thats why we need coastal patrol ships.  They would also pick up some of the work load from the CPF.  We are sent to do everything these days and its why our refits and upgrades are put off.
Sounds like you're talking about the Danish Navy's Flyvefisken class: http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/fly/index.html.  I agree that the Kingstons could be refitted for a larger OPV role at relatively little expense, but I don't think that turning them into missile boats would really make sense in our geopolitical context.  As Ex-D said, all that was recently discussed elsewhere (under the OPV thread, I believe).

The ORCA its not going to be a capable as some think.  It is going to be mainly officer training and port defence.  It will be faster than the MCDV but it will really be a step down in usefulness.  The MP's have supposedly staked a claim on one.  The east coast will be lucky to see any.  (from what I was reading) MOG 4 running the YAG's is under equipped for what they are mandated to do.  They need double what they have ordered to add on the extra tasks of harbour defence and to give the east coast a few.
I keep wondering who's going around saying that the ORCAs are going to be "capable".  They are intended solely for training - end of story.  They have some features that may make them an asset in times of need or in SARs, but they really aren't intended to do anything more than what the YAGs do now.  Also, the plan is for all boats to be stationed west, as with the YAGs.  The MPs do not have a claim staked on one.

That being said, Victoria Shipyards is planning to receive an order for a total of twelve, rather than the 6 + 2 being built now.  I have to admit I don't know what to make of that.
 
I'll be as Vaige as possible not knowing what I can say really.  Ex I think if you talk to Ops type guys off the Montreal who were on Op Apollo they should be able to tell you about occasions where things snuck up on us with out us knowing till the last minute.  There were times we went into port and had to leave again because of presumed threats.  There were other situations too.  I didn't loose any sleep over it but when it comes down to it ships are bomb magnets.  A well placed Dow with an RPG could do serious damage too us or any ship conducting boardings.  Thats not an expensive way to take a billion $$$ warship out of a fight.  It doesn't give me warm and fuzzy feelings.  The Falklands was really not that long ago.  The Kippers lost allot of gear and allot of sailors in a really short period of time.  Sure its been over twenty years and we learned allot but weapons systems changed and evolved too.  If there is Navel Combat in the 21st century, its going to be bloody and over really quick.  Having a capable Navy these days is like following the MAD doctern.  Your going to hurt us but we're going to hurt you too.  Anyways this all really is for another thread.

This is about LCS and I don't think the the MCDV is capable (I know it not an LCS & doesn't even to come close to fitting the mold). There not suited for what we use them for now.  There are comerciall vessels foreign and domestic that are capable of more than 15 knots.  What good is an MCDV if we can't use them to interdict in our own waters.  HMCS Brandon has been given sea straight restrictions because of damage in bad weather.  Bad weather is what sailing on the east coast is all about (The Brandon is out west).  It was in the paper last week that we are using them in conditions that they were not intended to be used.  We get thrown around on a CPF in the north Atlantic and they send these things across the pond.

If its good Mine Hunting fine how often do we use them in that roll??  I know they sent two across the pond for NATO last year for mine hunting tasks on exercise.  How ofter does that happen??  Correct me if I'm wrong but they act more like the YAG's training MARS Officers.

The way our outfit is, a redesign and refit would cost more than the original procurement.  It would be cheaper to get a capable corvette sized ships for an OPV/LCS.  Not necessarily gunned to the teeth but plan for the capability (Like Harpoon and 57mm). 

There is a definite and immediate need for OPV's its on the radar we've all heard them talk about it, I think its in the White Paper (no I have not read the White Paper).  We need inexpensive high speed, endurance capable and intimidating warships to make people prop there ears up.  Then we need leaders political and otherwise to have back bones (Like our CDS now) enough to stand up and say "no" when our sovernty and our international stance is questioned.  That is why we have these floating grey hulks.  Its for our leaders to point and say "hey look at me...look what I can do...look behind you." Doing that not firing a shot in anger.

  On the ORCA Comment

I Know its an out side agency but my comments about the ORCA were coming from reading this: "The secondary role assigned to the Orca class is inshore patrol" It's from: http://www.sfu.ca/casr/101-navyagorca.htm. thats why its got a bow gun the site says it gives the ORCA "Teeth" :)

I've heard from other people they want them for harbour defence hence my comments about the MP's.  I heard the Bos'n have eyes on them too for training.  But its here say really and would mean we would for sure need that order of 12 not 6.  I think it would be useful for Halifax to have if they want to use them for secondary rolls.

I love this place guys it brings out the argumentative Scotsman deep inside me  ;D

Have a good one

:cdn:
 
The ORCA's will be used for training MARS officers and inshore patrol. They will NOT be used for Harbor Defense. The Force Protection Vessel will be sailed by Boatswains and an MP will be onboard to act as the police, they will be taught to bring the boat alongside if the bosn gets incapacitated. There will be two on each coast. The smaller boats will be used to replace the ones the MP's smashed up in Halifax.
 
FSTO said:
The ORCA's will be used for training MARS officers and inshore patrol. They will NOT be used for Harbor Defense. The Force Protection Vessel will be sailed by Boatswains and an MP will be onboard to act as the police, they will be taught to bring the boat alongside if the bosn gets incapacitated. There will be two on each coast. The smaller boats will be used to replace the ones the MP's smashed up in Halifax.

LOL- imagine that. An incapacitated bosun.
 
Just looked at the US LCS program its on globalsecurity.org.  The main program is expected to cost 12 billion for 60 ships (200 MIllion each).  For a high tech vessel thats pretty good for a unit cost (CPF was close to a 1 Billion each). 

The one that caught my eye was Lockheed Martin's Sea Slice.  Maybe build it bigger but the Sea Swath design is supoesed to be much more stable in rough seas.  It wasn't chosen for LCS but it looks capable.  If you could pull off 30 - 40 knots and acomidate a NPB/RCMP/Fisheries Its perfect.  The Sea Slice was only a test bed for a new type of hull but it was built to be stable. 

Its all about cost and time really and the LCS program is well underway and OPV's are just a flicker in NDHQ's radar.  The problem with buying in the US, they typical want the refits.  If you buy a car you would have the choice of taking it to your own mechanic.  Maybe things will change in the years too come and we could pic some up at the end of the run like they would like to do with the assault ships.
 
Navy_Blue said:
The main program is expected to cost 12 billion for 60 ships (200 MIllion each).   For a high tech vessel thats pretty good for a unit cost (CPF was close to a 1 Billion each).  

Where are you getting the billion dollar price tag for a CPF? The sail away cost for a CPF was 424 million.

http://www.pwgsc.gc.ca/aeb/text/archive/pfd/cpf_cost_e.pdf
 
whiskey601 said:
Where are you getting the billion dollar price tag for a CPF? The sail away cost for a CPF was 424 million.

http://www.pwgsc.gc.ca/aeb/text/archive/pfd/cpf_cost_e.pdf
$1B was the average shipset lifecycle cost of the CPF programme - construction plus maintenance plus routine upgrades for the pre-determined ship life.  That wouldn't include FELEX, though, which would be priced in the same way.
 
I was told 750 million (So yes unconfirmed).  I rounded up for inflation  ;D.  I think FELEX is going to cost extra though.  I can't see a contract we made 20 years ago include the expect costs of major refits. 
 
It will be an expensive upgrade but it will put the CPF pretty much near the top in the frigate world again.
 
No Question FELEX is over due.  Can't wait till the first one goes in.  The first one is supposed to be Toronto.  2010 into 2011 then Halifax and so on.  I don't know why they didn't start with Halifax??  Our ships are going to be big grey jig saw puzzles when there done and they'll expect us to put them together them.  I'm looking forward to the new PG&D...the MWM is pain in the A$$.  IMCS & DCC upgrades/combo too.  Its like Christmas for MSE.  We may have to put it all togther when they done but it will be fun figuring it all out.

Can't wait

:)
 
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