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Pilotless drones eyed to replace CF-18s

Maritime_Matt

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fr. today's Globe and Mail.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050906.gtplanes06/BNStory/Technology/?query=drones

By MURRAY BREWSTER

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 Updated at 9:42 AM EDT

Canadian Press

HALIFAX â ” It is usually the stuff of science fiction and Hollywood, but Canadian defence
researchers are debating the replacement of the trusty CF-18 jetfighter with a fleet of sophisticated, pilotless drones.

The concept was first proposed in 2003 in an internal Defence Department research paper, but it has now become the subject of discussion within the air force.

The CF-18s, which are undergoing a $1.3-billion, life-extending modernization, are scheduled to keep flying until 2017.

The idea of simply substituting one manned aircraft for another should no longer be the obvious solution given the increasing complexity and relatively low cost of unmanned vehicles, said Thierry Gongora, a defence researcher

In his study, one of the options he suggested is replacing the CF-18 with a fleet of pilotless drones.

"It's in the realm of possibility," he said in an interview from Ottawa. "There are people thinking that much outside the box."

In an age of tight budgets, as well as a defence policy review and U.S. resolve to extend its security perimeter to the whole of North America, the idea of switching to drones isn't that far-fetched, said General Paul Manson, retired chief of defence staff and a member of the conference of defence associations.

Not having to risk lives attacking heavily defended targets makes them very attractive, Gen. Manson said.

Pilotless surveillance drones, such as the U.S. Predator, have seen military duty in Afghanistan with U.S. and Canadian forces.

The growing popularity of the system, which combines real-time video and a host of other electronic surveillance, has led to the development of more sophisticated drones that can carry missiles and attack ground targets.

Unlike the completely automated attack fighter that goes haywire in this summer's Hollywood movie Stealth, the real-life drones are controlled from the ground by technicians.

In the spring, the United States successfully tested the latest version of a robotic combat aircraft, which is being designed to evade ground fire.

Whether technically savvy robots can replace flesh-and-blood pilots in all aspects of air combat is still a matter of debate, Mr. Gongora said.

For example, the technology does not permit drones to carry out air-to-air interceptions, such as tracking down enemy aircraft or escorting airliners that may have been hijacked.

A senior air force officer in charge of the squadron supporting the CF-18 fleet is deeply skeptical.

"I'm not convinced the technology will be there," Lieutenant-Colonel Carl Doyon said in an interview from Bagotville, Que.
 
Several things wrong with this article:

First; is this statement:
For example, the technology does not permit drones to carry out air-to-air interceptions, such as tracking down enemy aircraft or escorting airliners that may have been hijacked.

Second; Drones are programmed on the ground before takeoff to fly in a programmed flight pattern.   They have no way to change their flight plans or make split second decisions on their own.   How can this in any way replace a piloted CF 18?  

A Remote Piloted plane is not a Drone; but it could replace an aircraft and fly a variety of missions with a pilot controlling it from the ground.   A Drone cannot.   RPVs and UAVs still don't have air combat abilities yet.   Some attempts are being made to make them capable of limited Ground Attack.
 
This point has started to intrigue me:

With it being possible to strap a set of glider wings and nav system onto a "dumb" bomb of 250 to 2000 lbs, launch it from more than 60 km away and hit the cross hairs on an ISO container, or better yet launch a Harpoon/SLAM-ER with a 500 lb warhead from 300 km, how much need is there for aircraft to "close" with the target? 

If you don't close, you don't put the aircraft and pilot at risk.  There is no need to contemplate arming the attacking vehicle to defend itself thus there is no need for the UCAV.  Does it make any sense to arm a Harpoon with air to air missiles, radar, control surfaces and gas so that it can autonomously engage in a dogfight on its attack run? Or does it make more sense just to keep weight and cost down so that there are more of them and they are harder to hit?

The developments in precision guided munitions are gradually forcing aircraft into the role of "Bomb-Trucks" in any event.  Does a "Bomb-Truck" have to be manned?  Or is it conceivable to use UAVs in that role?

I do see a role for manned aircraft in maintaining air-superiority, shooting down bomb-trucks, but unless you have carriers that is pretty much going to be a home-court advantage and even then there are likely to be issues with range overmatch with the attacking missiles having the advantage.
 
George,

I believe it is simply an example of poor technical knowledge (or worse poor terminology used by those interviewed) on the part of the author.  Similiar to the 155mm bomb launching recoiless rifle mentioned in another thread.  He does mention the Predator which is not a drone as an example of the vehicle type.

D
 
Pilotless Drones:

Before we replace pilots with "drones" serious issues have to be addressed:
Will CF-18 pilots be assimilated?
Will the drone operating platform be using PS2, XBox or Nintendo controllers?
Will the guys (read geeks) working the drones be able to get cool nicknames like real pilots do now; like Joystick or Big thumbs?
Is there a place for a pocket protector on a leather jacket/flight suit?
Will airbases currently known as Wings now be known as Cubes (you know drones=Borg)?
Can the drones be manufactured by Bombardier at three or four times the cost of an original off the shelf drone manufactured by another country?
If we go with the "off the shelf" option will we still buy the French drones? Which look really cool but have a myriad of technical problems i.e. prone to surrender to other drones, fly in the opposite direction of the combat area, think that they are better than all the other drones, and inoperability with US drones except when they see German drones.
 
Kirkhill said:
This point has started to intrigue me:

With it being possible to strap a set of glider wings and nav system onto a "dumb" bomb of 250 to 2000 lbs, launch it from more than 60 km away and hit the cross hairs on an ISO container, or better yet launch a Harpoon/SLAM-ER with a 500 lb warhead from 300 km, how much need is there for aircraft to "close" with the target?  

If you don't close, you don't put the aircraft and pilot at risk.   There is no need to contemplate arming the attacking vehicle to defend itself thus there is no need for the UCAV.   Does it make any sense to arm a Harpoon with air to air missiles, radar, control surfaces and gas so that it can autonomously engage in a dogfight on its attack run? Or does it make more sense just to keep weight and cost down so that there are more of them and they are harder to hit?

The developments in precision guided munitions are gradually forcing aircraft into the role of "Bomb-Trucks" in any event.    Does a "Bomb-Truck" have to be manned?   Or is it conceivable to use UAVs in that role?

I do see a role for manned aircraft in maintaining air-superiority, shooting down bomb-trucks, but unless you have carriers that is pretty much going to be a home-court advantage and even then there are likely to be issues with range overmatch with the attacking missiles having the advantage.

Google "MBDA Diamond Back" and "Leigh Longshot"



Matthew.    ;)
 
Too funny Jumper.

Also will these Drones be bilingual, gender neutral, secular and represent the changing face of Camada?
 
Re Diamondback/Longshot

Seen Matt.   Believe Longshot is now out of the running but Diamondback+Mk80 series+GPS/INS+Paveway Designator = Paveway III?
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/gbu-24.htm#gbu-24eb

Diamondback
http://www.mbda.net/site/FO/scripts/siteFO_contenu.php?lang=EN&noeu_id=117

After the bomb has been released and the "diamond" wing has been extended, the bomb benefits from additional lift. When a bomb like the GPS-guided JDAM (Joint Direct Attack Munition), equipped with a DIAMOND BACK ® kit, is released at an altitude of 25,000 ft (7 600 m), its range increases from 18.5km to 65 km.
Given that it is a glider presumably range increases with altitude.   Given that it is guided precision is presumably unaffected by range.

13 m CEP
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/issues/2001/Dec/Planned_JDAM.htm

3 m CEP
http://www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/~pacrange/s1/news/2000/DAMASK2.htm

250 lb SDB
http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers/archive/2004/december/i_ids8.html

170 miles Harpoon SLAM-ER
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/q2/nr_050519m.html

EGLIN AFB, FLA. - Officials at the Air Force
Research Laboratory Munitions Directorate,
in conjunction with Alenia Marconi Systems
and Boeing, conducted a successful proof of
concept test of a modified Joint Direct Attack
Munition (JDAM) BLU-109 weapon recently.
Known as the JDAM-ER (for extended
range), the weapon incorporates the use of a
device called Diamond Back. According to
2nd Lt. John Mehrman, JDAM-ER program
manager, the Diamond Back is a low cost,
high performance wing kit, which features a
joined tandem wing design. The wings
extend from a compact storage position and,
when fully deployed, they form a diamond
shaped platform.
Mehrman said the weapon was launched
from an F-16 at 20,000 feet and within 4
seconds the wings deployed and it began
flying down range on its own. After a 200-
second flight, the JDAM-ER splashed in the Gulf of Mexico at
a specified GPS coordinate.
"Diamond Back increases the range of the JDAM from 8 to
approximately 24 miles when launched at 20,000 feet,"
Mehrman said. "This not only extends the range of the
weapon, but also helps protect our warfighters by providing
by Rex Swenson, Munitions Directorate
Munitions lab conducts successful JDAM wing test
additional survivability for the delivery aircraft. It also
allows the attack of multiple, widely separated targets from a
single release point."
A cross range flight demonstration was scheduled for
shortly after the Diamond Back test. In that test the JDAMER
flew 15 miles down range and across 10 miles. @
Summer 2000 Volume II, Issue 2
news@afrl The official voice of the Air Force Research Laboratory
F e a t u r e s
BOMBS AWAY - An Air Force plane carries a Joint Direct Attack
Munition weapon with a Diamond Back. The Diamond Back is a
low cost, high performance wing kit that increases the range of
JDAM from 8 to 24 miles when launched at 20,000 feet.
 
The 18's will ride out their life to the planned 2020 or whatever it is. In 15 years UCAV technology is going to be drastically different and as long as the development continues at a reasonable pace, the problems and limitations of current models should be ironed out. Unlike manned craft which take 15 years to develop a new airframe, the US seems to be pumping out a new UCAV every couple of years and likely have some pretty nice machines under wraps still.

They're not looking to replace the 18's in 2008. When the time comes I dont think the political types will be able to justify a manned fighter. It'll be a sad day when no more fighter pilots exist in Canada. If it doesn't happen in 2020 I'll be surprised.
 
Of course we may all be blind sided by changes in technology, operations or doctrine. The most massively useful aircraft in Afghanistan and Iraq are not fighters or UAVs right now, but A-10s and AC-130s. An Apache getting up close and personal with the 30mm is probably right up there for CAS as well.

Whatever we get, the need for versatility, a wide range of possible configurations and the ability for a "man in the loop" to make split second decisions that no machine can make (yet) will still exist in 2020.
 
TheCheez said:
The 18's will ride out their life to the planned 2020 or whatever it is. In 15 years UCAV technology is going to be drastically different and as long as the development continues at a reasonable pace, the problems and limitations of current models should be ironed out. Unlike manned craft which take 15 years to develop a new airframe, the US seems to be pumping out a new UCAV every couple of years and likely have some pretty nice machines under wraps still.

They're not looking to replace the 18's in 2008. When the time comes I dont think the political types will be able to justify a manned fighter. It'll be a sad day when no more fighter pilots exist in Canada. If it doesn't happen in 2020 I'll be surprised.


I don't see how you figure fighters becoming obselete. I don't think they every will, at least not anytime soon.  They predicted fighters might go instinct with teh advent of the ICBM, but it never happened.

If we go through a period of econmic scarcity, which is predicted when oil becomes very expensive, then no country will be able to afford unmanned aircraft than can perform as well as jets.

If we can afford to buy unmanned aircraft, we can afford to maintain manned aircraft should we so desire.

We are assuming things will keep going forwards forever, but things change. I do realize UAVs have uses but replacing the performance of a fighter with a slow, stealthy UAV is not possible. They lack the all-round utility, can't patrol territory well and defend against interception, bomb long range, travel quickly,  etc....even if they could, they would cost much more and be less reliable for a long time. At a certain point they become more complicated than they need to be. We already have weapons more complicated than they need to be.

Most countries can't even afford modern fighters.

 
I guess one could state it's better to get the right tool for the job.

As described ambiguously in the article, the UCAV or the example of the Predator is
useful in an air to ground capability.   Though technology will improve the capabilities
of remote aircraft in the future, the article states air to air capability has not been
demonstrated.

When the Canadian government went through the aircraft acquisition process and
eventually settled on the CF-18, they were looking for a dual engine multi-role combat
aircraft.   This includes air to ground, air to air, air superiority, and interception.   The CF-18
is not excellent at all roles but provides adequate general performance.   UCAVs cannot.
A ground attack on a battlefield is one thing but responding to an unidentified air intrusion
in the arctic is another.

Theres a number of limiting factors for remote aircraft like control/acquisition range, RF
jamming, limited conventional ordnance, limited contact identification ability, extreme
environmental performance, that would leave UCAVs in niche roles for the foreseeable future.

 
UAVs and UCAVs have another benefit that hasn't been mentioned yet.. With the current political climate in the US, the government might see a great advantage in having pilot-less drones. If their children aren't dying in a war thousands of kilometers away, citizens might be more willing to support war. Of course this could open the door to "Universal Soldier" style cloning or genetic engineering programs. The last thing we need is a bunch of Jean-Claude Van Damms running around with guns.

On the other hand, at the moment, pilot-less drones are limited by the computer programs that control them. While I'm not a Computer Science major and I'm not sure how far advanced AI technology is, I suspect that currently, any craft performing in an interceptor role would probably require an operator on the ground to control it. This requires a data uplink, meaning some kind of radio connection between the craft and the operator. This can be jammed or spoofed or even hijacked with the right technology. The US is hard at work on microwave based directed energy weapons that are capable of frying computers from quite a distance (essentially a focused electromagnetic pulse). It wouldn't be too far fetched to see the Chinese or other possible beligerent states developing something similar that could be used to counter UCAV uplinks.

TheCheez has a good point though in that we have no idea where the technology will be in another ten years. Who knows what the future will bring?
 
A drone can never replace a Cf-18 on account that CF-18 and drones are totally different air craft. That settles it all together. Totally diferent purposes. The CF-18 is a Fighter aircraft and drones cannot fight air to air. Drones are slow and dont have far range. I talked to some people in the vancouver recruiting centre about it and they said theyd use it for scouting and stuff.
 
Warthor said:
A drone can never  replace a Cf-18 on account that CF-18 and drones are totally different air craft. That settles it all together. Totally diferent purposes. The CF-18 is a Fighter aircraft and drones cannot fight air to air. Drones are slow and dont have far range. I talked to some people in the vancouver recruiting centre about it and they said theyd use it for scouting and stuff.

Warthor, please don't try to be so sure of yourself in areas which are clearly outside your area of expertise. Current UAV technologies are focussed on surveillance operations, but the future potential of unmanned vehicles remains wide open. Unmanned combat aerial vehicles (UCAV) are certainly being discussed (and probably trialed in early stages) and this can see the likelihhod of unmanned vehicles being eventually considered to take over a variety of roles and tasks now solely executed by manned fighters or other aircraft.

I would sugest you spend some time investigating development trends and discussion on unmanned vehicles and reconsider the tone and specifics of your post. You will find there is much more information available to you than the views of a single service member talking about currently employed UAVs in CF service.

Thank you and welcome to army.ca.
 
Hey whoa, who said that i don't what im talking about im just taking information i was told. I watched a show about drones to on Discovery Channel also. Cmon now your making look inferior :'(  This is what i know about Drones there unmanned aircraft that are used for as you said scouting and spying on things, i also know that they also dont have any weaponry. They dont have far range and are very small. I also saw the disc drone they made that they launch like a frisbee its prety awesome.
 
Warthor

What I am trying to emphasize to you is that the little knowledge you have claimed to possess is not a complete picture of emerging unmanned aerial vehicle technologies. The opinions of some people at a CFRC on current use of the Sperwer, and a Discovery Channel episode on current UAVs/drones is NOT comprehensive knowledge.

You said this:

Warthor said:
A drone can never replace a Cf-18 on account that CF-18 and drones are totally different air craft. That settles it all together. Totally diferent purposes. The CF-18 is a Fighter aircraft and drones cannot fight air to air. Drones are slow and dont have far range. I talked to some people in the vancouver recruiting centre about it and they said theyd use it for scouting and stuff.

Which is pretty definitive as an opinion, and shows that you have not done further research into the issue.

Here is some reading for you to start with in otrder to explore the potential os future unmanned vehicles:


Some links for further reading:


X-45 Unmanned Combat Air Vehicle (UCAV) - http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/ucav.htm
(Scrolll down to the bottom of this page for further links)

UNMANNED COMBAT AIR VEHICLE; ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY DEMONSTATION (UCAV ATD); PHASE I - SELECTION PROCESS DOCUMENT ("SOLICITATION") MDA972-98-R-0003 - http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/ucav-sol.html

The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), in conjunction with the United States Air Force (USAF), is pleased to offer you the opportunity to respond to the Unmanned Combat Air Vehicle (UCAV) Advanced Technology Demonstration (ATD) solicitation. As you explore this solicitation we believe you will appreciate this unique opportunity to work in partnership with the US Government to demonstrate the technical feasibility of a UCAV system which can effectively and affordably prosecute 21st century Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD)/Strike missions within the emerging global command and control architecture.

UAV Technologies and Combat Operations - http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/ucav96/index.html

Chapter 3
Operational Mission and Task Concepts

Air-To-Air Combat (Offensive/Defensive). The offensive and defensive threat associated with air-to-air combat in the future will consist of enemy manned aircraft as well as air-, ground and sea-launched cruise missiles and ballistic missiles. It will be characterized by the necessity for quick and absolute dominance. UAVs would participate in air-to-air combat by air-to-air ambush and by high speed, high “g” interception. Each would be employed in a defensive or offensive role, depending on the target and scenario. As air-to-air UAVs enter the inventory, manned aircraft can be assigned to other missions.

UCAV Overview Department of the Navy UAV Offsite Meeting 20- 21 May 1998
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/ucav-overview.pdf

F-16 Unihabited Air Combat Vehicles - http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/98-282.htm

Joint Unmanned Combat Air Systems - http://www.darpa.mil/j-ucas/

X-45 J-UCAV JOINT UNMANNED COMBAT AIR SYSTEM, USA - http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/x-45-ucav/

X-45 Unmanned Combat Air Vehicle (UCAV) - http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/X-45A/index.html

The Joint Unmanned Combat Air Systems (J-UCAS) program is a joint DARPA/Air Force/Navy effort to demonstrate the technical feasibility, military utility and operational value for a networked system of high performance, weaponized unmanned air vehicles to effectively and affordably prosecute 21st century combat missions, including suppression of enemy air defenses, surveillance, and precision strike within the emerging global command and control architecture. One of the aircraft systems being evaluated is the Boeing X-45A.

X-45A first GPS-guided weapon demonstration - weapon release
http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/X-45A/Small/EC04-0100-01.jpg

 
for those of you that don't check the CF websites:
http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/news/2006/01/11_e.asp

silver fox just doesn't look as intimidating as a patroling CF-188!  ;)
 
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