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"PM says Indigenous talks may offer "solution" so Canada can honour war dead"

Ostrozac

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Flags as signals.
That literally is exactly what they are. Hence their prominent display in the original badges of the Royal Canadian Corps of Signals, before that Corps found religion (and Anglophilia) in the form of the Roman God Mercury.

Currently, half masting is within the PMs authority. And it Is his decision to defend. Do we need to change that? Can we? The trend for the last 50 years or so has been increasing, not decreasing, power in the PMO.
 

Kilted

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That literally is exactly what they are. Hence their prominent display in the original badges of the Royal Canadian Corps of Signals, before that Corps found religion (and Anglophilia) in the form of the Roman God Mercury.

Currently, half masting is within the PMs authority. And it Is his decision to defend. Do we need to change that? Can we? The trend for the last 50 years or so has been increasing, not decreasing, power in the PMO.
That's a job that probably shouldn't belong to an elected official. There is a reason why there is specific criteria for when the flag is half masted, so that it isn't done willy nilly.
 

Kilted

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Actually after this, barring Remembrance Day and the death of certain specific individuals, I don't think that the flag should be half masted for many years in order to recover its meaning.
 

Ostrozac

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That's a job that probably shouldn't belong to an elected official. There is a reason why there is specific criteria for when the flag is half masted, so that it isn't done willy nilly.
Treat it like heraldry, maybe, and put it with the GG? That transfers it out of the authority of the PM and the Minsiter of Canadian Heritage.
 

Jarnhamar

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Trudeau says he is confident a "solution" will be reached to allow Canada to honour its war dead on Remembrance Day

So basically the flag is being held hostage and we have to negotiate for it's return. I can't wait to read about what kind of deal he strikes up, unless it's hidden under cabinet confidence of course.
 

Kilted

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Treat it like heraldry, maybe, and put it with the GG? That transfers it out of the authority of the PM and the Minsiter of Canadian Heritage.
So trust flag protocol to the people who design and grant flags, that would make too much sense.
 

Kilted

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Some interesting information:


III. Discretionary Authority of the Prime Minister​

15. Foreign Heads of State or Heads of Government - Half-masting in Canada​

Upon the death of a current foreign head of state or a foreign head of government, and after consideration of his/her stature and the relation of that country with Canada, the Prime Minister may approve the Half-masting of the Flag on the Peace Tower on the advice of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Canada and Canadian Heritage, and the recommendation of the Clerk of the Privy Council.

16. Exceptional Circumstances​

In exceptional circumstances, and on the advice of the Department of Canadian Heritage and the recommendation of the Clerk of the Privy Council, the Prime Minister may approve the Half-masting of the Flag on the Peace Tower, and/or on all or some federal buildings and establishments in Canada or abroad, that is not provided for in the Rules.


19. Legal Holidays​

If the Flag is Half-masted anywhere in Canada or abroad in accordance with the Rules, it must nonetheless be flown at full-mast on the following legal holidays created under the Holidays Act (R.S.C. c. H-5): Victoria Day and Canada Day.

20. Visiting Foreign Head of State or Head of Government​

If the Flag is Half-masted on the Peace Tower in accordance with the Rules, it must nonetheless be raised to full-mast while a foreign head of state or foreign head of government is visiting Parliament.

21. Exceptions to Sections 19 and 20​

Sections 19 and 20 do not apply if the Flag is Half-masted for the death of the Sovereign, but the Flag is flown at full-mast on the day on which the accession of the new monarch is proclaimed. Sections 19 and 20 also do not apply if the Flag is Half-masted for the death of the current Governor-General or the current Prime Minister.


Source: Rules for half-masting the National Flag of Canada - Canada.ca

I'm pretty sure that it was down on Canada Day, which apparently it was not supposed to be.
 

AirDet

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I just can't hold my peace anymore on this issue... Sure lots of kids died. Do we half mast for one child? How about two? No we don't. When the hockey team was wiped out we lowered it for one day. Where is the reasoning for the flag still sitting at half mast? It makes no sense.
Got it! They feel like Canada tried to wipe them out. I think it was more of trying to integrate them into society.
Regardless, there's absolutely no reason our flags should remain down this long! Should the aggrieved groups wish to keep their flags down that's their business but the Canadian flag needs to fly high and free.
 

Blackadder1916

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Treat it like heraldry, maybe, and put it with the GG? That transfers it out of the authority of the PM and the Minsiter of Canadian Heritage.

Let's see the reaction when the entity that the GG represents kept protocol to the letter when the mother of the second in line to the throne died.

The concessions came thick and fast. In breach with Royal precedent, it was announced that tomorrow the Union flag will fly from Buckingham Palace at half mast after the Queen has left for the funeral service at Westminster Abbey. This meets the growing chorus of demands from many ordinary people who have complained that there has been no flag at all. Traditionally, only the Royal Standard is flown - and then only when the Queen is resident.
 

Kilted

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Let's see the reaction when the entity that the GG represents kept protocol to the letter when the mother of the second in line to the throne died.

You can't half-mast a personal flag, it was a case of the population being uneducated. They were able to find a way to half-mast a flag when the Queen is not in residence. Even to this day the Union Jack is flown when the Queen is not home.

Also, I know that the PM does whatever he wants, and so far without consequence. I'm not sure that there is anyone else in our society that has the level of impunity that he has. Trump thought that he did, but clearly, he was wrong.
 

Blackadder1916

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You can't half-mast a personal flag, it was a case of the population being uneducated. They were able to find a way to half-mast a flag when the Queen is not in residence. Even to this day the Union Jack is flown when the Queen is not home.

Also, I know that the PM does whatever he wants, and so far without consequence. I'm not sure that there is anyone else in our society that has the level of impunity that he has. Trump thought that he did, but clearly, he was wrong.

The post I was responding to suggested that by removing the authority from the PM and Minister and giving it to the Governor General, that protocol would be adhered to and that public opinion considerations would not be applied to half-masting decisions. My example was to prove that wrong. How did they find a way to half-mast a flag? They changed the protocol in response to public opinion. Prior to the 1997 death of Diana, Princess of Wales, the only flag that flew from Buckingham Palace was the Royal Standard and only when the Sovereign was in residence. The Queen (and most of her mob) were up north at Balmoral so there was nothing flying at the location most people looked upon as the official home of the Queen. Even when they returned to London there was a period when the they did not break tradition (the Royal Standard went up). It was only on the day of the funeral that they caved to public outrage and raised the Union Flag (after the Queen had left the palace for the funeral) and half-masted it. Now protocol includes having the Union Flag flying at the palace when the Queen is not in residence and half-masting as deemed appropriate.
 

Mills Bomb

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I agree with others in this thread, does it even matter anymore?

I'll be remember our veterans this November 11th in my own personal way. I could care less what level the current PM decides to put the flags at.
 

Fishbone Jones

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Some interesting information:


III. Discretionary Authority of the Prime Minister​

15. Foreign Heads of State or Heads of Government - Half-masting in Canada​

Upon the death of a current foreign head of state or a foreign head of government, and after consideration of his/her stature and the relation of that country with Canada, the Prime Minister may approve the Half-masting of the Flag on the Peace Tower on the advice of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Canada and Canadian Heritage, and the recommendation of the Clerk of the Privy Council.

16. Exceptional Circumstances​

In exceptional circumstances, and on the advice of the Department of Canadian Heritage and the recommendation of the Clerk of the Privy Council, the Prime Minister may approve the Half-masting of the Flag on the Peace Tower, and/or on all or some federal buildings and establishments in Canada or abroad, that is not provided for in the Rules.


19. Legal Holidays​

If the Flag is Half-masted anywhere in Canada or abroad in accordance with the Rules, it must nonetheless be flown at full-mast on the following legal holidays created under the Holidays Act (R.S.C. c. H-5): Victoria Day and Canada Day.

20. Visiting Foreign Head of State or Head of Government​

If the Flag is Half-masted on the Peace Tower in accordance with the Rules, it must nonetheless be raised to full-mast while a foreign head of state or foreign head of government is visiting Parliament.

21. Exceptions to Sections 19 and 20​

Sections 19 and 20 do not apply if the Flag is Half-masted for the death of the Sovereign, but the Flag is flown at full-mast on the day on which the accession of the new monarch is proclaimed. Sections 19 and 20 also do not apply if the Flag is Half-masted for the death of the current Governor-General or the current Prime Minister.


Source: Rules for half-masting the National Flag of Canada - Canada.ca

I'm pretty sure that it was down on Canada Day, which apparently it was not supposed to be.
So a cursory read says the PM doesn't have any authority to half mast the flag on his own, which he did. Have I got that right? If so, does that mean he can't hold it hostage on a whim?
 

brihard

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Got it! They feel like Canada tried to wipe them out. I think it was more of trying to integrate them into society.
While Canada didn’t try to “wipe them out” in the sense of physical extermination, Canada did try to destroy them culturally, linguistically, and societally. It was an explicit, deliberate and systematic effort to force assimilation and to permanently rupture the indigenous children from their own cultures. Canada legalized the forcible kidnapping of children in order to destroy societies that were inconvenient to the emerging Canadian state. This took place in the context of other widespread legal measures that suppressed Indians rather brutally, and kept them forcibly confined to designated tracts of land.

One of the legal terms that later emerged to describe this kind of state behaviour is “crimes against humanity”.

Just so we aren’t minimizing what actually happened.
 

kratz

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According to the national Native leader interviewed on CTV this morning, "I have no problem raising the flag on the 11th and returning it to half mast. We will be mourning and healing for years to come."

So....permently half masted flags for 3 to 5 years?
 

Quirky

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Do they need a flag on a pole at half mast to mourn? It’s already lost all meaning now.
 

daftandbarmy

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Do they need a flag on a pole at half mast to mourn? It’s already lost all meaning now.

Which brings to mind this quote:

“[The main road was] now teeming with people carrying torches, pitchforks, and rakes, and one very confused man who apparently had mistaken the mob for a parade and was marching around with a Swedish flag.”

― Cuthbert Soup
 

The Bread Guy

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Do they need a flag on a pole at half mast to mourn? It’s already lost all meaning now.
If you're going to ask the question, it could go both towards those remembering the war dead as well as those who are thinking of other dead.
So a cursory read says the PM doesn't have any authority to half mast the flag on his own, which he did. Have I got that right?
Sorta-kinda -- if this is the case ...
In exceptional circumstances, and on the advice of the Department of Canadian Heritage and the recommendation of the Clerk of the Privy Council, the Prime Minister may approve the Half-masting of the Flag on the Peace Tower, and/or on all or some federal buildings and establishments in Canada or abroad, that is not provided for in the Rules.
... then all that has to happen is for Heritage to "suggest" (and who might have asked them the question needing advice?) and the Clerk "recommend". And we've only recently seen how the Clerk can ... wrestle with what PM & Co. wants at any given time (remember this guy?).
 

Kilted

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So a few things here. First of all, you cannot put two flags on the same flag pole in Canada, what they are suggesting isn't legal. And second, where does it stop with the orange flags, is it just the peace tower, is it just government buildings, are people going to be told that they can't wear their job wings anymore because that space is being taken up by one of those flags?
 
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