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Politics in 2018

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Remius

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Breacher said:
That is your opinion. I respectfully disagree.

So costumes are the biggest take away for you from this gong show? Sorry no.  Bird_Gunner is correct.  it detracts from the more serious issue of screwing up relations with a potential trading partner not to mention a serious security breach and error in judgement.

But some people just want to chew on the bone that is thrown at them rather than the actual meat they are trying to hide.
 

Loachman

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There was a comment from one Indian commentator to the effect that "nobody of importance in India takes him seriously", based upon his costume choices and poses. So, yes, even before the Atwal incident, he had severely compromised his secondary reason for being there.

His stupid fashion choices did not detract from his other failures. They set the stage for the others, and reinforced his overall weakness.

And it's not only the Indian government that takes him less seriously than it previously did because of this clown-like performance (if any government ever did).
 

Jarnhamar

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Trudeau's fascination with playing dress up and acting isn't the main take away from his performance in India but it's a great segue into his priorities and what he's all about.  Into the main show, if you will  ;D

Comparing Trudeau's dress-up with Harper? Not even close.

It actually doesn't bother me that much. Trudeau is a drama teacher so he's rolling with what he knows in his comfort zone. Canadians elected a drama teacher so this is what they get. 
 
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jollyjacktar

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Remius said:
So costumes are the biggest take away for you from this gong show? Sorry no.  Bird_Gunner is correct.  it detracts from the more serious issue of screwing up relations with a potential trading partner not to mention a serious security breach and error in judgement.

But some people just want to chew on the bone that is thrown at them rather than the actual meat they are trying to hide.

I disagree.  By turning this trip into a National Lampoon's Indian Vacation comedy, he dicked around for 90% plus of the time with the wife and kids.  This "Hey everybody! It's a party!!!" attitude, led to dragging along every Indo/Canadian on team Red, who in turn dragged in the convicted arsehole that made Indian heads explode.  It's no wonder they don't take us seriously with the Canadian Kardashians showing up on vacation. 

http://thechronicleherald.ca/sites/default/files/bm_cartoon/CH-deAdder-27_02_2018-MD.jpg
 

Remius

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The problem with Trudeau critics is that they always attack superficial things like his costumes like his hair, his socks like the fact he's a drama teacher etc etc.  No wonder he'll get elected again.  No one seems to attack his policies his judgement etc etc.  The opposition better start getting it together or electors aren't going to buy the hair or costume stuff just like they didn't buy it last time.

Scheer finally did indeed do that but it's being drowned out with shiny stuff that is clearly distracting from the more serious things.

TBH I really think that he might be doing this all on purpose to keep people focused on those trivial things and people are falling for it.
 

Cloud Cover

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Remius said:
TBH I really think that he might be doing this all on purpose to keep people focused on those trivial things and people are falling for it.

... and even if not on purpose, at least the outcome will be the same. Sigh.
 

Furniture

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Remius said:
The problem with Trudeau critics is that they always attack superficial things like his costumes like his hair, his socks like the fact he's a drama teacher etc etc.  No wonder he'll get elected again.  No one seems to attack his policies his judgement etc etc.  The opposition better start getting it together or electors aren't going to buy the hair or costume stuff just like they didn't buy it last time.

Scheer finally did indeed do that but it's being drowned out with shiny stuff that is clearly distracting from the more serious things.

TBH I really think that he might be doing this all on purpose to keep people focused on those trivial things and people are falling for it.

I wouldn't say his detractors are focused on the fluff, I'd say the media is and that leads it to be the "news" you hear about. People comment on it frequently because it's the media narrative surrounding the man. Policy and serious matters aren't even considered by the average voter until the election comes around, and one could make a strong argument that even at election time most people don't care about policy.
 

MarkOttawa

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Justin Trudeau's excellent Indian adventure:

1) CP:

Trudeau backs official who said Indian government factions sabotaged trip

Justin Trudeau is standing by a senior government official who suggested factions within the Indian government were involved in sabotaging the prime minister's visit to India last week.

During his first question period since arriving back in Canada, opposition MPs are grilling Trudeau about invitations issued to Jaspal Atwal – a B.C. Sikh convicted of attempting to assassinate an Indian cabinet minister in 1986 – to attend two events with the prime minister in India.

In a background briefing arranged by the Prime Minister's Office, a government official suggested that Atwal's presence was arranged by factions within the Indian government who want to prevent Prime Minister Narendra Modi from getting too cosy with a foreign government they believe is not committed to a united India.

Conservatives are identifying the official as Trudeau's national security adviser, Daniel Jean, and they're pressing Trudeau to say whether he agrees with Jean's "conspiracy theory."

Trudeau is defending the official as a professional, non-partisan public servant who provides quality advice.

He says when a top diplomat and security official says something "it's because they know it to be true."..
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/trudeau-backs-official-who-said-indian-government-factions-sabotaged-trip/article38130663/

2) Times of India--India's foreign intelligence agency--the Research and Analysis Wing, RAW (nice cover name, what?), is known to be active in Canada with regard to Khalistanis amongst other things:

SAD: Govt agencies conspired to eclipse Canadian PM Trudeau's India visit

ALANDHAR: BJP's alliance partner in the Centre [federal gov't New Delhi] and the state [Punjab, recently in coalition with BJP but lost most recent state election], Shiromani Akali Dal [a Sikh party] has now alleged that the Indian intelligence agencies had hatched a conspiracy to ruin Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's visit to India. The party has also accused the BJP and the Congress of playing a part in this.

SAD Delhi unit chief Manjit Singh G K, who is also president of the Delhi Sikh Gurudwara Management Committee, minced no words in flaying the Centre for the treatment meted out to Trudeau. He said there were attempts to malign the image of Sikhs.

"While one hand our Prime Minister can go to Pakistan uninvited despite the hostilities on the border or welcome Chinese president with great warmth despite its adversities, Canadian PM was cold shouldered even as Canada has done nothing against India," he said in a statement issued on Monday. "Sikhs could never imagine that the PM of a country which provided them opportunities of employment and growth would be treated so badly by the Indian government," he said.

He said the DSGMC was writing to the Union ministries of external affairs, home affairs and information and broadcasting to register their protest against the way Trudeau was cold shouldered and brazen attempts were made to embarrass him.

Giving details of sequence of visits by Jaspal Atwal and his posts from his Facebok account, G K pointed out Atwal had even posted a picture with a BJP national spokesperson, who is also holding important official positions in the central government bodies, as a guest on Media Waves radio talk show. He said there was a strong suspicion that the Indian intelligence/security agencies had hatched a conspiracy to sabotage Trudeau's visit to India so that he could be branded a Khalistan supporter and some section of the media also played a role in it [emphasis added]...
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chandigarh/sad-govt-agencies-conspired-to-eclipse-canadian-pm-trudeaus-india-visit/articleshow/63087810.cms?from=mdr

Mark
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Breacher

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Remius said:
So costumes are the biggest take away for you from this gong show? Sorry no.  Bird_Gunner is correct.  it detracts from the more serious issue of screwing up relations with a potential trading partner not to mention a serious security breach and error in judgement.

But some people just want to chew on the bone that is thrown at them rather than the actual meat they are trying to hide.

Sigh. I guess I should have provided more detail on my thoughts. I will attempt to rectify that now.

In his rebuttal, BG45 claims to be making no comparisons. In order for me to validate his statement “let’s not pretend he was the first PM to dress up”, I have to compare PM Trudeau’s performance to that of his predecessors. BG45 then provides examples to assist in making a comparison. I’m a thumperhead, so maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t know what else to call it other than a comparison. I wanted see if BG45’s examples supported his point of view. This is where I have the problem. The photos he posted are without context and that makes them pretty much meaningless. I attempted to put them into context by providing the links and after doing so I felt that the representations in the photos didn’t qualify as “dressing up” or “costume wearing” (this is the point I was trying to make). Here’s why:

In the first image, PM Harper is seen wearing a ceremonial headdress. This was no doubt given to him as an honour from the Blood Tribe. To put it in soldier terms, it would be like being presented the MMM at Rideau Hall by the GG. To categorize it as “dress up” is in my mind, being insensitive to First Nations culture. IMHO, it is not dress up.

In the second series of images, there is one image of PM Harper wearing headdress and a business suit. I wasn’t there and so I do not know the circumstances. However, I can surmise that he was asked by his hosts to wear the headdress or he was advised by his staff that wearing it was the appropriate cultural or religious custom for the circumstance. I could be wrong. If so, I still don’t see wearing this one cultural item as dressing up.

In the third image, PM Harper is dressed in cowboy attire to attend the Calgary Stampede. PM Harper is from Calgary. His riding was in Calgary. The Calgary Stampede is a big deal to Calgarians. Dressing in cowboy attire to attend Stampede functions is the custom for many Calgarians. It would be like an Indian in India dressing up for an Indian wedding in Indian clothes. So maybe this image does in some way support BG45’s assertion, but I feel if it does, the support is on pretty shaky ground.

"So costumes are the biggest take away for you from this gong show?"

I don’t know where you are getting that from. I never said that. If you want to know my feelings on it, here they are. The “costumes” are all part and parcel of the whole debacle. They are not a separate entity. The perceived snub, the dress up, the photo ops, the lack of a meaningful workload, the terrorist sympathizer/convicted attempted murderer invite, the Canadian history flub, the blaming of the Indian government… did I miss anything? It all contributed to this fiasco. And no, I'm not chewing any bones here.

Anyways, I’m starting to ramble so I will end it here. I hope I made myself better understood.
 

pbi

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Remius said:
The problem with Trudeau critics is that they always attack superficial things like his costumes like his hair, his socks like the fact he's a drama teacher etc etc.  No wonder he'll get elected again.  No one seems to attack his policies his judgement etc etc.  The opposition better start getting it together or electors aren't going to buy the hair or costume stuff just like they didn't buy it last time.

Scheer finally did indeed do that but it's being drowned out with shiny stuff that is clearly distracting from the more serious things.

TBH I really think that he might be doing this all on purpose to keep people focused on those trivial things and people are falling for it.

I agree that there are people who will trash The Younger no matter what he does or says. They may hate the idea of a Liberal Govt, or of another Trudeau in office, or God knows what. They are thoroughly PO'd, and bit prone to ranting.

But, that should not be allowed to overshadow the concerns of those people who have thought about this more deeply, and who have genuinely felt misgivings about this PM's behaviour.

I am certainly one of those people, and even more so because I voted for his Govt, and I do believe that in some ways his father was a statesman and not without some gravitas (twirling about behind HM the Queen not included...). The Younger is NOT his father.

I am increasingly concerned about what I see as his apparent lack of mental discipline or of much wisdom.This debacle in India, along with such silly things as the summer jobs Inquisition and the dreadful idea about the small business taxation regime, suggest to me that he lacks practicality.

I though carefully before I voted, and it was not without some doubts that after a lifetime of voting Tory, I went Liberal. I do not want my vote to have been wasted.
 

Jarnhamar

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Maybe Trudeau should stop flying around on these little "work" vacation trips until the Phoenix debacle is fixed.
 

Loachman

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A large number of voters base their choices on shallow impressions of candidates rather than serious consideration of candidates' actual abilities (or lack thereof) and detailed understanding of key issues. Name and hair and "dreaminess" compared to stodgy, old, control-freak Stephen Harper was a prime factor for many.

Wannabe-murderers hanging around during sensitive visits, budgets that don't balance (especially by themselves), major trade negotiations, defence matters, etcetera bore them. Bright colours and sparkles have far more interest for these people.

Seeing The Sun King almost-universally slammed for ridiculous costumes, "cultural appropriations", and peoplekinds will have more effect on them than anything else. Realization that he is all flash and no bang will turn off many.

Peacockiness is far from his most serious flaw, but it is the most visible one, and, like the gaudy tailfeathers, attracts the most attention.

We are seeing screw-up after screw-up added to the pile. Each example sews more doubt in more people's minds. Eventually, a tipping point will be reached.
 

OldSolduer

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He’s a lightweight amateur in a world full of MMA cage fighters who don’t obey the rules....
 

Bird_Gunner45

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Breacher said:
Sigh. I guess I should have provided more detail on my thoughts. I will attempt to rectify that now.

In his rebuttal, BG45 claims to be making no comparisons. In order for me to validate his statement “let’s not pretend he was the first PM to dress up”, I have to compare PM Trudeau’s performance to that of his predecessors. BG45 then provides examples to assist in making a comparison. I’m a thumperhead, so maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t know what else to call it other than a comparison. I wanted see if BG45’s examples supported his point of view. This is where I have the problem. The photos he posted are without context and that makes them pretty much meaningless. I attempted to put them into context by providing the links and after doing so I felt that the representations in the photos didn’t qualify as “dressing up” or “costume wearing” (this is the point I was trying to make). Here’s why:

In the first image, PM Harper is seen wearing a ceremonial headdress. This was no doubt given to him as an honour from the Blood Tribe. To put it in soldier terms, it would be like being presented the MMM at Rideau Hall by the GG. To categorize it as “dress up” is in my mind, being insensitive to First Nations culture. IMHO, it is not dress up.

In the second series of images, there is one image of PM Harper wearing headdress and a business suit. I wasn’t there and so I do not know the circumstances. However, I can surmise that he was asked by his hosts to wear the headdress or he was advised by his staff that wearing it was the appropriate cultural or religious custom for the circumstance. I could be wrong. If so, I still don’t see wearing this one cultural item as dressing up.

In the third image, PM Harper is dressed in cowboy attire to attend the Calgary Stampede. PM Harper is from Calgary. His riding was in Calgary. The Calgary Stampede is a big deal to Calgarians. Dressing in cowboy attire to attend Stampede functions is the custom for many Calgarians. It would be like an Indian in India dressing up for an Indian wedding in Indian clothes. So maybe this image does in some way support BG45’s assertion, but I feel if it does, the support is on pretty shaky ground.

"So costumes are the biggest take away for you from this gong show?"

I don’t know where you are getting that from. I never said that. If you want to know my feelings on it, here they are. The “costumes” are all part and parcel of the whole debacle. They are not a separate entity. The perceived snub, the dress up, the photo ops, the lack of a meaningful workload, the terrorist sympathizer/convicted attempted murderer invite, the Canadian history flub, the blaming of the Indian government… did I miss anything? It all contributed to this fiasco. And no, I'm not chewing any bones here.

Anyways, I’m starting to ramble so I will end it here. I hope I made myself better understood.

you're missing the larger point though. Focusing on costumes is like sitting in a rocking chair a la Van Wilder- it gives you something to do but it wont get you anywhere. Yes, Trudeau went over the top, cartoonishly committing cultural appropriation, which ironically most left-wing SJWs, which he claims to be, hate. However, while easy to point out, it's larger irrelevant other than in how it impacts Indian-Canadian relations. Had PMJT shown up in India and increased business and strategic relations than the costumes would have been irrelevant as the larger goal would have been met. Heck, even if he just had a couple of good meetings with PM Modi that served no other purpose than to just touch base than the costumes wouldn't have mattered.

The Atwal incident is the bigger story- it either indicates gross incompetence by members of the LPC around Trudeau or a concerted effort by the LPC to thumb their noses at India for the gain of a few Sikh voters in Vancouver and Toronto. Ultimately neither option is good for Canadian-Indian relations, which if we dont want to rely solely on China once the US bows out of world affairs if they maintain their current trajectory, we need to improve. The costumes are irrelevant in this just as they were for Harper when he donned them (admittedly less ridiculously by multitudes).
 

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Bird_Gunner45 said:
you're missing the larger point though. Focusing on costumes is like sitting in a rocking chair a la Van Wilder- it gives you something to do but it wont get you anywhere. Yes, Trudeau went over the top, cartoonishly committing cultural appropriation, which ironically most left-wing SJWs, which he claims to be, hate. However, while easy to point out, it's larger irrelevant other than in how it impacts Indian-Canadian relations. Had PMJT shown up in India and increased business and strategic relations than the costumes would have been irrelevant as the larger goal would have been met. Heck, even if he just had a couple of good meetings with PM Modi that served no other purpose than to just touch base than the costumes wouldn't have mattered.

The Atwal incident is the bigger story- it either indicates gross incompetence by members of the LPC around Trudeau or a concerted effort by the LPC to thumb their noses at India for the gain of a few Sikh voters in Vancouver and Toronto. Ultimately neither option is good for Canadian-Indian relations, which if we dont want to rely solely on China once the US bows out of world affairs if they maintain their current trajectory, we need to improve. The costumes are irrelevant in this just as they were for Harper when he donned them (admittedly less ridiculously by multitudes).

I am missing nothing. You seem to be the one focusing on costumes as you keep coming back to it. Please re-read the end of my post. I have stated my opinion on the whole fiasco there. The costumes is just a part of it. I simply don't agree that it should be outright dismissed as a distraction.
 

Furniture

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Bird_Gunner45 said:
you're missing the larger point though. Focusing on costumes is like sitting in a rocking chair a la Van Wilder- it gives you something to do but it wont get you anywhere. Yes, Trudeau went over the top, cartoonishly committing cultural appropriation, which ironically most left-wing SJWs, which he claims to be, hate. However, while easy to point out, it's larger irrelevant other than in how it impacts Indian-Canadian relations. Had PMJT shown up in India and increased business and strategic relations than the costumes would have been irrelevant as the larger goal would have been met. Heck, even if he just had a couple of good meetings with PM Modi that served no other purpose than to just touch base than the costumes wouldn't have mattered.

The costumes are in and of themselves an issue though, the Indian press mentioned them and their apparent lack of amusement with them... When a "World Leader" shows up in your country dressed as a caricature of your people, and continues to do it for days that's an issue. He didn't improve relations, he actively ruined relations through both costume and actions regarding a convicted attempted murderer... In my experience the Canadian Embasay/Commision staff are switched on to local politics and culture, I doubt any of them were consulted in this debacle.

When we hosted a High Commission event in Mumbai this past summer we oddly enough didn't dress in costumes(apart from uniform)...
 

Journeyman

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Remius said:
TBH I really think that he might be doing this all on purpose to keep people focused on those trivial things and people are falling for it.
...



^^^ Sorry, words fail me.
 

Remius

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Journeyman said:
...



^^^ Sorry, words fail me.

And yet this thread and in fact a good number of people on this site focus on all of those trivial things.  He is accused of having little substance yet a lot of the criticism of him also seems to be of the same caliber.
 
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