Pregnant US soldiers overseas

[TCBF]

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/5019/1_e.asp

Above is the link to the DAOD on Personal Relationships and Fraternization, which replaced CFAO 19-38 in 2004.  In it we have:

"Fraternization means any relationship between a CF member and a person from an enemy or belligerent force, or a CF member and a local inhabitant within a theatre of operations where CF members are deployed. (fraternisation)"
...

"Personal relationship means an emotional, romantic, sexual or family relationship, including marriage or a common-law partnership or civil union, between two CF members, or a CF member and a DND employee or contractor, or member of an allied force. (relations personnelles)"
...

"Fraternization can have detrimental effects on unit operation effectiveness due to potential threats to the security, morale, cohesion and discipline of a unit. Task force commanders shall issue orders and guidance on fraternization appropriate to the situation in their area of operations."
...

"If a personal relationship has a negative effect on the security, cohesion, discipline or morale of a unit, the personal relationship is considered adverse for the purpose of this DAOD.

Administrative action shall be taken to separate CF members who are involved in an adverse personal relationship.

If an adverse personal relationship cannot be changed within the applicable unit/sub-unit for the CF members in a supervisor/subordinate relationship, the CF members shall be separated by attached posting, posting, change in work assignments or other action.

Such a separation is not punitive in nature, nor shall there be a negative stigma or career implication towards the CF members."

Edit: Replaced Link.

 

[Scott]

Springroll, it sums up frat between Officers and Enlisted pers.

 

[scoutfinch]

You've identified two different situations. Illegal fraternization and getting pregnant to avoid deploiyment. I don't see how getting pregnant by illegal fraternization carries any weight for a charge with it. Wether the fraternization is legal or not the results can be the same.

Getting pregnant to avid deployment - what would the charge be? Self inflicted injury? Dereliction of duty? I am not making fun, I just don't know how one would make a charge out of it and go on to prove it.

I stand to be corrected but I do not think there is a requirement to prove intent for a charge of self-inflicted injury.(Note:  I am a civilian lawyer NOT AJAG -- My only knowlwedge on this point is a personal recollection of an individual be charged with a self inflicted injury for laying out tanning on the roof of the Jr. Ranks Barracks at CFB Toronto and getting a vicious sunburn).  The point being, I don't think you would have to prove that the soldier *got* pregnant to avoid deployment.  Getting pregnant would be enough... in a hypothetical world.  I suspect the political fallout of a charge of Self Inflicted Injury on a pregnant soldier would be blistering.

With respect to fraternization, let's not forget that it takes two to.... well, fraternize! ;D

 

[Springroll]

Springroll, it sums up frat between Officers and Enlisted pers.

CW2 = Chief Warrant Officer(WO-2)
SSG = Staff Sergeant (E-6)

Both are still enlisted personel.

 

[Scott]

The fraternization doesn't bother me, it seems rather cut and dried what is and isn't when it comes to that.

What has got me scratching my head is: What would you charge a woman for in that situation and how would you make it stick?

I could see this becoming very embarrassing for somebody. What, do you tell all women who are about to deploy that they may not have sex until after they are in theatre? Do you force them to take birth control? That doesn't always work...

I think we've opened up something pretty big here. Where's a good JAG lawyer when you need one?

CW2 = Chief Warrant Officer(WO-2)
SSG = Staff Sergeant (E-6)

Both are still enlisted personel.

Springroll, You had better do a search before yapping off next time, you've been warned already.

http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/insignias/officers.html

Warrant officers hold warrants from their service secretary and are specialists and experts in certain military technologies or capabilities. The lowest ranking warrant officers serve under a warrant, but they receive commissions from the president upon promotion to chief warrant officer 2. These commissioned warrant officers are direct representatives of the president of the United States. They derive their authority from the same source as commissioned officers but remain specialists, in contrast to commissioned officers, who are generalists. There are no warrant officers in the Air Force.

Hmmmm, someone was talking out of their arse.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I could see this becoming very embarrassing for somebody. What, do you tell all women who are about to deploy that they may not have sex until after they are in theatre? Do you force them to take birth control? That doesn't always work...

Tell them that getting pregnant while on deployment is forbidden.  How they deal with it is their problem, no? Where is the problem? We're already identified that fraternization even with one's spouse is not permitted on deployment.  Guess the only problem arises if they take their leave with their spouse.

Used to be you needed permission to marry, or have a child.  That's obviously changed. *shrugs*

 

[Scott]

When they get pregnant just before deploying. That was one of the matters up for discussion, no? Wether trying to avoid deployment or not was an issue and how to discipline that person.

 

[scoutfinch]

What has got me scratching my head is: What would you charge a woman for in that situation and how would you make it stick?

I could see this becoming very embarrassing for somebody. What, do you tell all women who are about to deploy that they may not have sex until after they are in theatre? Do you force them to take birth control? That doesn't always work...

Springroll, my bad, missed that one.

To be clear, are we talking about sex in theatre or sex before one gets to theatre (resulting in a pre-deployment pregnancy)?

I keep harkening back to this point but if a soldier gets pregnant in theatre, there is a pretty good change that another soldier has also broken the 'no sex in theatre' rule... while the evidence may be gender specific, the offending act certainly isn't. 

The no sex before theatre is more problematic for obvious reason. 

 

[Scott]

It is the no sex before deployment that has me wondering. If a woman, who knows of a pending deployment, gets pregnant will there be any recourse? What would that be? Can the CF really expect to charge a woman for getting pregnant, deployment pending or not?

 

[Pea]

When they get pregnant just before deploying. That was one of the matters up for discussion, no? Wether trying to avoid deployment or not was an issue and how to discipline that person.

This I would think would be really touche. Birth Control is about 99% effective. If I am taking birth control and am having sex with my spouse before a deployment, and I become pregnant, should I really be disciplined? I have taken the normal steps to prevent this have I not?

 

[Jarnhamar]

I didn't want to touch the whole get pregnant to avoid deployment issue. How can you judge whether someone got pregnant on purpose?

I'm sure that come deployment time there is an increase in pregnancies. Lack of integrity? Maybe, but it's human nature. Guys will try and get out of deployment too albeit in a different manner. Some "pre deployment" pregnancies will be accidental, some will be planned.

My question was about women *already* in theater.  If they are told frat is illegal and a pregnancy is the result of an obvious case of frat, ie woman has been deployed 4 months and she's 1 month pregnant, would said female (and perhaps her male partner in crime) be charged with what disobeying an order- no frat.

I don't see why she or they shouldn't be.  Not only is it disobeying an order but it's creating an administrative burden due to the soldier having to be sent home and replaced.

 

[Scott]

This I would think would be really touche. Birth Control is about 99% effective. If I am taking birth control and am having sex with my spouse before a deployment, and I become pregnant, should I really be disciplined? I have taken the normal steps to prevent this have I not?

I agree with you. I was just looking for some debate on the matter from someone who either had experience with this or knew the regs enough to offer an opinion on what would happen. I think it would be pretty archaic to discipline a woman for doing what is natural with her significant other and getting pregnant.

In theatre, different story. Ghost, I don't know if she or her partner would be charged but they both damn well should be. They disobeyed an order - cut and dried.

And back to before deploying - no you sure can't say for sure if someone got pregnant to avoid the trip. I guess in the same way you can't tell that a rolled ankle was to avoid leaving. I guess this is one of those things that will always be argued.

 

[scoutfinch]

I didn't want to touch the whole get pregnant to avoid deployment issue. How can you judge whether someone got pregnant on purpose?

I'm sure that come deployment time there is an increase in pregnancies. Lack of integrity? Maybe, but it's human nature. Guys will try and get out of deployment too albeit in a different manner. Some "pre deployment" pregnancies will be accidental, some will be planned.

My question was about women *already* in theater.  If they are told frat is illegal and a pregnancy is the result of an obvious case of frat, ie woman has been deployed 4 months and she's 1 month pregnant, would said female (and perhaps her male partner in crime) be charged with what disobeying an order- no frat.

I don't see why she or they shouldn't be.  Not only is it disobeying an order but it's creating an administrative burden due to the soldier having to be sent home and replaced.

If that is the case, getting pregnant is not the offense, it is the result of the offending act.  The offense would be fraternization or breaching the 'no sex in theatre' rule.

If the charge is disobeying a lawful command, anyone doing co-ed pushups has contravened the order, I would think.  Not just the woman, pregnant or otherwise. 

Just my .02

 

[muffin]

This I would think would be really touche. Birth Control is about 99% effective.

I can agree with this here - I was taking the pill when I became pregnant with my first child - I was not deployed, but was on course. Basically - I was told if I could not complete all the requirements of the course I would be sent home. Lucky for me - I was almost done and was able to finish. I was pulled off a few subsequent courses though - and that was expected.

I agree that it would be very difficult to prove a woman became pregnant to avoid deployment/training/or anything else for that matter.

I agree with Ghost778 - I think the pregnancy idea is clouding the main idea a little... if there is a NO FRAT policy - and a women becomes pregnant - then it is obvious that she fraternised with someone. However I don't think you would say "Can you charge her for being pregnant", but "Would you charge her with frat". To me it is no different than if you walked in on the act iself - chain of command becomes aware and administrative action is carried on accordingly.

Trying to get the father though, could prove to be quite difficult.

I also think it would depend on when it happened - I worked with a girl once who became pregnant on HLTA and didn't tell anyone until she got home. When I was pregnant in the military (and please medics - if it is changed or I am wrong - correct me) I was told that the army would not consider me pregnant until I was over 12 weeks. After that time my medcat and eveything changed.

If the woman was near the end of the deployment and didn't say anything, and someone did the math when she got home, could she still be charged with frat?

.... it is all so very complex...

muffin

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

That being said, could/would Command order you to have an abortion if you were  critical to the mission?

 

[beach_bum]

That being said, could/would Command order you to have an abortion if you were  critical to the mission?

I highly doubt that one would ever be possible.  I don't see how.  Could you just imagine the uproar?  I'm all for freedom of choice...but, my beliefs would never allow that. 

 

[Gunner]

That being said, could/would Command order you to have an abortion if you were  critical to the mission?

:rofl:

Couldn't you just imagine if there was any truth to that at all.... 

 

[TCBF]

"That being said, could/would Command order you to have an abortion if you were  critical to the mission?"

- Nowadays, the biggest uproar would be if they ordered someone NOT to have an abortion.