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Ptes attending PLQ

George Wallace

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Sorry.  I do disagree.  Different corps than yours, but I am sure others are just as likely to have followed the same practice in the CA as opposed to those in the CS and CSS.
 

scaddie

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Just a question; I always thought you had to have another course in addition to your DP1 (Driver Wheel, 2A's, Coms) in order to go on your PLQ? Is this false information?
 
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jmackenzie_15

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Scaddie said:
Just a question; I always thought you had to have another course in addition to your DP1 (Driver Wheel, 2A's, Coms) in order to go on your PLQ? Is this false information?

That's to get promoted to corporal... or at least its supposed to be im sure..thats how it used to be/sometimes is at my unit. I dunno if its an official requirement or not but the guys with QL4s obviously get promoted faster.

It would seem logical that somebody going on a leadership course should have more than just biq.... and thats all the guys going on the PLQ course with me... theres me, one other corporal, and 6 guys who finished course 3 months ago. I wish that I had another year or two down before I went at this but its too late now... these guys dont know what an arctic tent is  :-\
 

Pikache

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In res world to get promoted to corporal you need DP1 plus 2 yrs since your swear in date plus CO's recommendation. Some units take CO's recommendation seriously (IE not promoting bags of hammers) while others it's a gimme thing.

I have seen people w/o DP2A (is Alpha denomination necessary now that DP2B is scrapped?) get on PLQ to take DP2A afterwards. They just can't be promoted MCpl without DP2A plus PLQ.
 

reccecrewman

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At the same time, while the initial idea may be enough to cause a shudder, It has to be recognized that if a Unit is looking to send Privates on a PLQ, they are not going to send just any Private.  They are going to (hopefully) scour their Coy's/Sqn's looking for those bright, shiny stars that have leadership potential and have already separated themselves from their peers as a soldier.  The other thing to look at here is suppose a Unit sends a Private and still has non-PLQ qualified Corporals, that says that the Unit recognizes the fact that this Private has a more positive upside than the Corporal's that don't have it.  Should this be the case, kudos to the leadership for not sending a sub-standard Corporal on the course and not rewarding some plug Corporal that doesn't deserve it.
 

Kat Stevens

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Then the "plug Cpl" will fail the course, having no leadership potential.  His PER, or whatever the acronym du jour is, will reflect this, and he will be career restricted until completion of said course.  This brings up a question for the Adm gurus;  If a Pte is sent on leadership course and fails, is he career restricted, ie Pte for life?
 

WogCpl

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Did my JLC/JNCO with a Pte a while back, keen guy, did very well. If you have the leadreship ability and people skills, why not do this course while your still very much "into" the military and still excited about doing your job. I have seen to many guys on this course that are bitter, broken and could not lead by example if their lives depended on it.
 

KevinB

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The Artillery is totally different that the rest of the (real) combat arms.

I was both a Gunner and then a Patricia and I have a pretty good idea of the grooming concept for young officers.

Arty - arrives follows the TC's and CPO. GPO etc around  it is tech trade not one that require real leadership beyond what is done by the NCO's (this is not a dig at Arty officers for I know a lot more of them that I like than Patricia officers ...)  The TechWO and in the FOO Parties the tech will sometimes help the young officer along with his skills but bot the same way as the other Arms.


Infantry (and from what I have seen of the combined arms the Engineers and Armoured are the same)  2LT arrives meets OC - given a Platoon - introdced to Warrant and told to listen...  See's OC for O groups and that is it -- unlike the Artillery there are no other officers to hang around (or rely on) with in the field. 

Now back to the topic in question  ;D

 

Jarnhamar

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I wanted to reply to this before the week-end so I'm going to back track a little.

There is a big difference between an NCM/NCO with a year or two in the army "leading" and a 2nd LT.
A young officer has a very difficult job, there is no doubt about that.  A platoon commander however deals mostly  (right?) with the platoon warrant and section commanders.  These guys have a good deal of experience to draw from. If the platoon commander makes a mistake or some there there is a good chance one of the NCOs will catch it.
NCOs have to deal with brand new soldiers who don't know that you can't drink your canteen all at once on a long march. Not to skip meals because they don't feel hungry or don't like the ration they got. 

An NCO NEEDS to have spent time as a soldier so they understand how the things they are going to be teaching works. Anyone can be taught how to make lesson plans then put in front of a class and taught how to rhyme it off.  Corporals and master corporals (and privates with their leadership course) need to understand what their teaching so if a slower learning recruit doesn't understand whats being taught the instructor can use a different approach OR use terms that the recruit can understand and relate too. To do that you have to have experience. Passing a leadership course doesn't give you that experience.

Imagine a 17 year old takes his drivers licence test and passes doing very well.  Would you turn around and have him teach defensive driving to other drivers with barely any driving experience himself? No way. He needs time behind the wheel to understand what he will be teaching others.
 
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jmackenzie_15

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Basically, the universal concept here is that soldiers without any experience can not make good leaders. Period.
Putting them on a leadership course, while it will give them the ideas and tools in which to use in practice, it will not teach them how to use them expertly or even proficiently, as this can only be gained with experience.

I like Ghosts' analogy:

If youve just gotten behind the wheel for the first time, you are in no place to teach others how to drive.
 

Scoobie Newbie

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I'll be honest I haven't kept up with this thread for a while so my thoughts may be out of place here.

That said the current Mods 1-6/PLQ can be passed by a trained monkey.
Point 2 is that my BN now have Mcpl's that can't do the job because they got promoted before they had a chance to learn what the Cpl did.  Not the members fault just the system needed the numbers quickly.
 

Jay4th

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CFL, same in my BN. Too young, too inexperienced but they were here when the courses ran and we were in theater. Now they will write my PER this year.  Next year it will be written by guys who stayed home from this tour and went on course instead.  While we were on BTE, they were on 1-5.  Nuff said.
 

KevinB

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Have a good one Jay  ;)

Just remember to be in the bitter Cpl's club - you need to be a bitter Cpl...

If they promoted you they'd need to find a new bitter Cpl - and then who would teach .50 to the new M/Cpl's that never saw it before...

You wouldn't as you be teaching other stuff to young troops ;D ;D
 

Bobbyoreo

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Just thought this was funny. I was talking to guys from 2VP today that are on their way to do PLQ mod6 (field part) and they told me that Privates are now on the course!!!!! What happened to the quality??? Just dont think Privates have enought time in to learn or be taught how to be a MCPL.

Is this normal or is this the first most of us have heard of this?

thx
 

axeman

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yup its starting to be the norm now sigh .. i remember when if you did not have 6 + yrs in forget it .
 

Bobbyoreo

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Wow,

I hope this does not effect the quality of the leader...or is that just another standard to be lowered?
 

Scoobie Newbie

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Do to the short comings in the ranks they are now pushing for Pte's to get their leadership.  Kinda like in the 80's.  There was a thread on this somewhere about reintroducing this kind of thing.

P.S.  IMO its not working so well.
 

Bobbyoreo

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Sad...os very sad. Wait till they deploy these 2 yr MCPL's .....see what happens then or I'd rather not....ouch :-[
 

MJP

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What's wrong with it?  Ptes use to be course loaded all the time on JNCO and ISCC courses. All it means is that someone saw leadership potential in the troops in question and decided to develop them.  They are usually quite motivated and keen individuals that make up for their lack of experience with drive.  


Bobbyoreo said:
Just dont think Privates have enought time in to learn or be taught how to be a MCPL.

What utter tripe!!  Ever hear of knowing the job two levels up?  Being able to step up to the plate when asked/told to?  I guess gathering from your statement that the Pte that did the 2IC role for me last year shouldn't have been there?  Get your head out of the sand and look at reality, we are constantly short trained soldiers at all levels and we will always have soldiers in roles that generally they wouldn't have.  It's a fact of being in the army.  A good Sect Comd/2IC should be training his guys to be able to replace him if necessary.....

CFL said:
P.S.  IMO its not working so well.

Meh.....How is it not working?  Power trips? lack of experience? shutting 'er down?  Cause I tell ya bud I see just as many "old Cpl" bad leaders as I do young Pte/Cpl ones.  It has more to do with the quality of an individual soldier in question than their time in IMHO.
 

Scoobie Newbie

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"All it means is that someone saw leadership potential in the troops in question and decided to develop them.  They are usually quite motivated and keen individuals that make up for their lack of experience with drive." 

Quantity not quality.  Guys that get loaded my be fit or what not but there are few in my opinion that have grasped the basics let alone go on higher.  I have no doubt there are some that are extra special but that is few and far between.


"Meh.....How is it not working?  Power trips? lack of experience? shutting 'er down?  Cause I tell ya bud I see just as many "old Cpl" bad leaders as I do young Pte/Cpl ones.  It has more to do with the quality of an individual soldier in question than their time in IMHO."

More so lack of experience.  There are guys that are promoted Mcpl and Sgt that shouldn't have passed Cpl's.  With the course now a day's a trained monkey can pass it with minimal effort (and yes that is looking at it as staff as well as talking to people that have taken it).
There are shitty Cpl's out there and they are noramlly relagated to postions where they have minimal influence/negative impact.  The problem with Mcpl's that can tell their head from their ass is that they are the buffer between you and the Sgt.  Also they can influence one's standing and career by writing the PDR's and PER's which could be a bad thing if you point out his error's/shortcomings albet in a professional manner.  Becoming a Jack puts a lot of pressure on these guys and they want to perform well which can result in bad leadership because they have no experience.  MJP I know you don't really give a shit but if you really care PM me.
In closing of this ramble there are shit pumps at all levels.  The difference is that the higher you go the more impact they can have.
 
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