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RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’

Jarnhamar

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There's been a number of stories lately in the news that's not painting police in the best light. I'd be curious to see if support for the thin blue line has went up or down.
 

Alberta Bound

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There's been a number of stories lately in the news that's not painting police in the best light. I'd be curious to see if support for the thin blue line has went up or down.
The Canadian surveys I have seen on average show lower levels of support for police since George Floyd and the Defund the Police Movement. But not substantially. Greater police support in rural areas, lower in the larger cities.

But who can blame lots of people. For those that are easily swayed, the narrative was overwhelming. it is the people in Govt who should know the demands and still howl at the moon for everything that bothers me.
 
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mariomike

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Greater police support in rural areas, lower in the larger cities.
My father and I were pretty close to my uncle. He was a Metro police officer for 30 years ( to the day ). He never married, so we got to spend a lot of time with him. He said they deployed heavily into high crime areas. Naturally. Why there was higher crime? Sociological problems, education, DNA... who knows?

Quieter areas complained they were paying for protection that was going elsewhere.

He said those high crime areas were the only communities that voted regularly for police pay raises and improving benefits. And the police gave them the best service they could.

As far as TBL goes, saw TBL flags at the Washington D.C. incident, where about 140 police officers were injured.
 

Alberta Bound

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My father and I were pretty close to my uncle. He was a Metro police officer for 30 years ( to the day ). He never married, so we got to spend a lot of time with him. He said they deployed heavily into high crime areas. Naturally. Why there was higher crime? Sociological problems, education, DNA... who knows?

Quieter areas complained they were paying for protection that was going elsewhere.

He said those high crime areas were the only communities that voted regularly for police pay raises and improving benefits. And the police gave them the best service they could.

Saw a few TBL "battle flags" at the Washington D.C. incident.
Some of the communities that had the highest CSIs and the worst underlying social issues were also where I made the best friends in the local population and got the most appreciation. Its where I also got used to the community leadership, vilifying us publicly and at the same time praising us privately. To the point of being offended if after a public meeting and beheading We refused to come over for dinner.
 

mariomike

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Some of the communities that had the highest CSIs and the worst underlying social issues were also where I made the best friends in the local population and got the most appreciation. Its where I also got used to the community leadership, vilifying us publicly and at the same time praising us privately. To the point of being offended if after a public meeting and beheading We refused to come over for dinner.
Our department was sent regularly into the projects. You had to watch for incoming "air mail". :)

Back in 1984 one of our guys started a Children's Breakfast Club in Falstaff TCHC. Got the idea from the Black Panthers, apparently.

Not to suggest Children's Breakfast Clubs are the answer. I don't know what is. There's all sorts of studies by the experts.
 

Alberta Bound

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Our department was sent regularly into the projects. You had to watch for incoming "air mail". :)

Back in 1984 one of our guys started a Children's Breakfast Club in Falstaff TCHC. Got the idea from the Black Panthers, apparently.

Not to suggest Children's Breakfast Clubs are the answer. I don't know what is. There's all sorts of studies by the experts.
I don’t know what the answer is either. But my faith in the experts knowing the answer is also not high.
 

Jarnhamar

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But who can blame lots of people. For those that are easily swayed, the narrative was overwhelming.
Yea the abolish the police shit is stupid. We need more cops IMO.
That's not the behavior I'm talking about however.

This month it's a recap of the Ottawa police's Constable Eric Posts 32 charges, including sexual assault, plea bargained down to 5 after what appeared to be a prolonged campaign to ignore complaints against him.
Officer from Hamilton's behavior towards a disabled Transgendered person caught on camera.
Barrie Police losing control and smashing up a skateboarder sending him to the hospital with head trauma.
Man in Montreal wrongly ID'd and held for 6 days.
15 year rcmp vet charged with child porn and 5 people dying in police custody or with police present.

Busy two weeks.

Andcurt is saying frontline officers who have been told not to wear the thin blue line stuff are disobeying orders and still wearing them. Makes you wonder.
 

mariomike

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This month it's a recap of the Ottawa police's Constable Eric Posts 32 charges, including sexual assault, plea bargained down to 5 after what appeared to be a prolonged campaign to ignore complaints against him.
Officer from Hamilton's behavior towards a disabled Transgendered person caught on camera.
Barrie Police losing control and smashing up a skateboarder sending him to the hospital with head trauma.
Man in Montreal wrongly ID'd and held for 6 days.
15 year rcmp vet charged with child porn and 5 people dying in police custody or with police present.
William "Bill" Parker was chief of the LAPD from 1950 - 65.

He said, "We'll always have cases like this because we have one big problem selecting police officers...we have to select from the human race."
 

Alberta Bound

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Yea the abolish the police shit is stupid. We need more cops IMO.
That's not the behavior I'm talking about however.

This month it's a recap of the Ottawa police's Constable Eric Posts 32 charges, including sexual assault, plea bargained down to 5 after what appeared to be a prolonged campaign to ignore complaints against him.
Officer from Hamilton's behavior towards a disabled Transgendered person caught on camera.
Barrie Police losing control and smashing up a skateboarder sending him to the hospital with head trauma.
Man in Montreal wrongly ID'd and held for 6 days.
15 year rcmp vet charged with child porn and 5 people dying in police custody or with police present.

Busy two weeks.

Andcurt is saying frontline officers who have been told not to wear the thin blue line stuff are disobeying orders and still wearing them. Makes you wonder.
I can’t say anything except that these are all examples of what is bad in policing. Like any other occupation, we have bad people. Like other occupations, we can only strive to make up for the bad with overwhelming good.

I don’t think I would compare police officers holding onto a symbol of group solidarity (TBL) in the face of direction not too, as equating to the other horrible actions. Personally, I see those who are willing to stand up to say “no, this isnt a symbol that should be divisive. But as a symbol of courage and honour and sacrifice. Shared by all police; of all genders, sexes, races, faiths, etc. In service to all our communities.” As being in all our interests. Having police who are willing to stand up to their superiors versus blindly following orders is important. Even when those symbols have been co-opted by other groups and our leadership may decide it is politically easier to simply ban those symbols.

I don’t need the TBL on my vest, to know I have solidarity with other cops (and emergency workers And our citizens). But for some, symbols are very important in helping them remember that solidarity.
 

mariomike

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I don’t need the TBL on my vest, to know I have solidarity with other cops (and emergency workers And our citizens). But for some, symbols are very important in helping them remember that solidarity.
I think the power is in the badge, knowing you can always call on your colleagues for help.

Any sensible person supports their police. They can show that by electing politicians who support our police.
 

Halifax Tar

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Yea the abolish the police shit is stupid. We need more cops IMO.
That's not the behavior I'm talking about however.

This month it's a recap of the Ottawa police's Constable Eric Posts 32 charges, including sexual assault, plea bargained down to 5 after what appeared to be a prolonged campaign to ignore complaints against him.
Officer from Hamilton's behavior towards a disabled Transgendered person caught on camera.
Barrie Police losing control and smashing up a skateboarder sending him to the hospital with head trauma.
Man in Montreal wrongly ID'd and held for 6 days.
15 year rcmp vet charged with child porn and 5 people dying in police custody or with police present.

Busy two weeks.

Andcurt is saying frontline officers who have been told not to wear the thin blue line stuff are disobeying orders and still wearing them. Makes you wonder.

All professions be they public or private are just reflections of the society that they are staffed from. If there is a problem in policing, that problem is probably actually deeply rooted in the society those officers are drawn from. Want to fix the police, fix society. But like gun control its easier to legislate feel good initiatives rather than tackle the root causes of what ails us.

Its no different than what is going in the CAF with Op Honour and the former CDS ect ect ect. We have a hyper sexualized society. Until we fix that, getting people to keep their hands to themselves is going to be an issue. I am by no means dismissing the actions of those who commit these offences. I just find it contradictory that society demands one thing from certain professions, then hyper proliferates another; and is then shocked when good apples turn bad.

Having a daughter really changes how you see the world... Maybe its just me.
 

CBH99

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As a civilian investigator with Alberta SOLGEN, we currently have a file open against a police officer who’s situation seems similar to the one mentioned above.

Multiple complaints against him made by various parties - all very much ignored, or somehow justified.

Criminal harassment against multiple individuals - dismissed as they have had a hard time pulling their phone records. Most of them being younger females, who have all consistently complained about 15 to 20 phone calls EVERY DAY for weeks on end. (Heaven forbid the police assist with accessing their phone records.)

Lied about fabricating witness statements, despite the fact that EVERY SINGLE WITNESS STATEMENT is in his writing. Some of the witnesses he allegedly took these statements from have confirmed they weren’t even contacted by the officer. (He literally just wrote out their statement for them and submitted it as evidence, despite that person not being contacted at all)

Blatantly committed perjury. Told court the suspect only answered 2 questions, and was extremely uncooperative. (Truth is, the suspect went to the police station when requested, and spoke to the officer for almost 3hrs).

The list goes on & on. And on. And on.


The problem with some policing issues isn’t necessarily society. It’s a culture in “some” police services (typically smaller services) where accountability of more senior officers tends to be neglected.

This officer is very charismatic, friendly, shakes hands and is very charming. I think a lot of people just take his word for it, without actually looking at his work very closely.

^^ While possibly some issues rooted in society, our profession demands & expects us to be better than the average citizen when it comes to integrity. It’s leadership neglecting to hold problem members accountable that emboldens them.
 

Halifax Tar

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As a civilian investigator with Alberta SOLGEN, we currently have a file open against a police officer who’s situation seems similar to the one mentioned above.

Multiple complaints against him made by various parties - all very much ignored, or somehow justified.

Criminal harassment against multiple individuals - dismissed as they have had a hard time pulling their phone records. Most of them being younger females, who have all consistently complained about 15 to 20 phone calls EVERY DAY for weeks on end. (Heaven forbid the police assist with accessing their phone records.)

Lied about fabricating witness statements, despite the fact that EVERY SINGLE WITNESS STATEMENT is in his writing. Some of the witnesses he allegedly took these statements from have confirmed they weren’t even contacted by the officer. (He literally just wrote out their statement for them and submitted it as evidence, despite that person not being contacted at all)

Blatantly committed perjury. Told court the suspect only answered 2 questions, and was extremely uncooperative. (Truth is, the suspect went to the police station when requested, and spoke to the officer for almost 3hrs).

The list goes on & on. And on. And on.


The problem with some policing issues isn’t necessarily society. It’s a culture in “some” police services (typically smaller services) where accountability of more senior officers tends to be neglected.

This officer is very charismatic, friendly, shakes hands and is very charming. I think a lot of people just take his word for it, without actually looking at his work very closely.

^^ While possibly some issues rooted in society, our profession demands & expects us to be better than the average citizen when it comes to integrity. It’s leadership neglecting to hold problem members accountable that emboldens them.

I can understand that.

The problem is its unrealistic to think you are going to get better than the average citizen in any profession, you will have your top 1/3 and middle 1/3, but you will also have your bottom 1/3. Regardless of what the outside image and desired public perception is.

If society has systemic issues than a percentage of recruits we hire will bring them with them. You cannot change Policing or CAF culture until you have societal cultural shift. Again this doesn't mean we don't take action on offences and prosecute the guilty. All I am saying is this isn't going to stop, or even slow down until we change as a society. And brother, I have no idea how to do that.
 

RedFive

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I can understand that.

The problem is its unrealistic to think you are going to get better than the average citizen in any profession, you will have your top 1/3 and middle 1/3, but you will also have your bottom 1/3. Regardless of what the outside image and desired public perception is.

If society has systemic issues than a percentage of recruits we hire will bring them with them. You cannot change Policing or CAF culture until you have societal cultural shift. Again this doesn't mean we don't take action on offences and prosecute the guilty. All I am saying is this isn't going to stop, or even slow down until we change as a society. And brother, I have no idea how to do that.

I'll chip in with your analogy of the thirds.

The RCMP, specifically, fails to hire the best possible recruits because its pay is so low, its benefits are now, at best, on par with other big name Municipal forces, and there is literally no incentive to take the job with the RCMP and all the things that come with it. (postings, small town policing, lack of Force owned housing, etc)

These are things that are actively being worked on by the NPF and RCMP, but will take years to correct.

Look no further than the constant changes to the RCMP recruiting process, which no longer requires citizenship, makes allowances for criminal records, and, most shockingly to me, did away with an in person interview. Even McDonald's interviews potential employees.
 

Halifax Tar

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I'll chip in with your analogy of the thirds.

The RCMP, specifically, fails to hire the best possible recruits because its pay is so low, its benefits are now, at best, on par with other big name Municipal forces, and there is literally no incentive to take the job with the RCMP and all the things that come with it. (postings, small town policing, lack of Force owned housing, etc)

These are things that are actively being worked on by the NPF and RCMP, but will take years to correct.

Look no further than the constant changes to the RCMP recruiting process, which no longer requires citizenship, makes allowances for criminal records, and, most shockingly to me, did away with an in person interview. Even McDonald's interviews potential employees.

I would agree, we (Police and CAF) should do better to recruit the best candidates. Unfortunately just like the promotion process in the CAF we don't always get the best; as the "best" is now determined by more than job ability, knowledge and leadership. <cough French language training cough>
 

brihard

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I can understand that.

The problem is its unrealistic to think you are going to get better than the average citizen in any profession, you will have your top 1/3 and middle 1/3, but you will also have your bottom 1/3. Regardless of what the outside image and desired public perception is.

If society has systemic issues than a percentage of recruits we hire will bring them with them. You cannot change Policing or CAF culture until you have societal cultural shift. Again this doesn't mean we don't take action on offences and prosecute the guilty. All I am saying is this isn't going to stop, or even slow down until we change as a society. And brother, I have no idea how to do that.
Yes and no.

I absolutely think we can do ‘better than average’ in terms of the conduct and values of who we bring in. Part of that would come from a solid recruiting and vetting process that identifies and weeds out people with overt problems. Largely this is achieved already, though not fully. The bigger challenge will be the covert dirtbags- those with an unrecorded history of domestic violence; the rare few who get busted years later for child porn, etc.

A lot of the biggest issues seem to come from those who develop problematic behaviour along the way. The ones who become abusive in their power, who become abusive to a romantic partner, who develop addictions that they fund through corrupt processes. I believe a lot of this ties to the mental health baggage that cops pick up and carry along the way (not unlike some of CAF’s discipline cases).

Now I’m not saying that mental health problems excuse bad conduct. Far from it. Those here who actually know me, know be to be a big advocate of mental health awareness, and also know me to value accountability for behaviour. If a police officer starts sliding mentally and starts making poor choices, they own their choices- but their police employer still owns the problem. I think there’s a lot more room for some serious early intervention and ‘tough love’ when it becomes apparent that conduct is beginning to show concerning behaviours. Get those muckled on to before they become a pattern. I think investment into mental health care for police officers, coupled with the expectation that it be utilized, would have a considerable return in terms of saved costs, and public perception.
 

mariomike

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Even McDonald's interviews potential employees.
Even the city I worked for, interviewed potential employees. And it wasn't one-on-one.

It was an Oral Board ( a panel of five interviewers ).

A stressful and toxic experience. The interviewers were cold and unpleasant.

It was a technique to test how the applicant handled stress by taking them out of their comfort zone.

Of course that was long before websites such as this that tell applicants what to expect , and how to handle themselves, during the Interview. Even how to dress.

It was just them playing a little game with you.

I was already used to getting yelled at in the PRes anyway. :)

Another thing was different in the emergency services was that, prior to the early 1980's, new members tended to be under the age of 25.

I read that, now, "Joining the RCMP as a second career isn't unusual — the average age of a cadet at Depot, the RCMP's national training centre, is 28."

( By comparison, In New York City, recruits must be under the age of 29. )

Seems to be more about "Life Experience" now.

Back then, the belief seemed to be that it should not be the second career of an individual. That young men ( as it was at the time ) were more "moldable" than older individuals to the departmental subculture. And that young individuals were less likely to have developed bad habits.

This was in line with the CAF SSEP program. Where your BMQ ( GMT back then ) was all 16-year olds such as yourself. You went on to take your trade training with that same age group.

Lots of jobs were like that back them. Especially if you had a family "legacy".

Not to suggest back then was better, or worse, than now. Just different.
 

CBH99

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I would agree, we (Police and CAF) should do better to recruit the best candidates. Unfortunately just like the promotion process in the CAF we don't always get the best; as the "best" is now determined by more than job ability, knowledge and leadership. <cough French language training cough>
When I was working in recruiting in the CAF way back yonder, Afghanistan was in full swing. We basically had a directive of “hire everybody, regardless of anything other than career criminal.”

So we tried to weed out the better applicants from the average, but unless someone was a Class A f**kup on a colossal scale (career criminal type) - we offered employment. (The recruiting process was faster, too.)

Oddly enough, I found some of the applicants that became the best members were the ones that didn’t read well on paper, and who were looking at the CAF as a clean slate. They treated it as such.
 

daftandbarmy

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When I was working in recruiting in the CAF way back yonder, Afghanistan was in full swing. We basically had a directive of “hire everybody, regardless of anything other than career criminal.”

So we tried to weed out the better applicants from the average, but unless someone was a Class A f**kup on a colossal scale (career criminal type) - we offered employment. (The recruiting process was faster, too.)

Oddly enough, I found some of the applicants that became the best members were the ones that didn’t read well on paper, and who were looking at the CAF as a clean slate. They treated it as such.

Some of the best troops were offered a choice: 'jail or the Army'.
 
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