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"Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation

The RCN has its old rank titles and executive curl back. What should be the next step for the CF ra

  • Nothing. The current rank system works, so leave it alone.

    Votes: 118 57.8%
  • Complete return to the pre-unification ranks of the 50s and early 60s.

    Votes: 41 20.1%
  • Complete return to post unification ranks of the 70s and early 80s.

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • Officers only return to the pre-unification ranks of the 50s and early 60s.

    Votes: 9 4.4%
  • Copy the UK rank system - it is the prototype anyway.

    Votes: 17 8.3%
  • Copy the US rank system - they are the new colonial master.

    Votes: 2 1.0%
  • Create a whole new Canadian system.

    Votes: 8 3.9%
  • Lobby for standardized NATO rank insignia.

    Votes: 7 3.4%
  • Copy the French rank system - it is the other founding nation's turn

    Votes: 1 0.5%

  • Total voters
    204

Happy Guy

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Schindler's Lift said:
Has anyone heard when the army officers are supposed to change over to their "new" old rank insignia or is this an initiative that has been left to die in silence?

I heard from my boss that Army Officers are to change to their new ranks sometime before the start of the 100th anniversary of WW1, 5 August.  I gathered from reading the posts here that the new ranks will be available through Logistiks.

Cheers
 

vonGarvin

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Happy Guy said:
I heard from my boss that Army Officers are to change to their new ranks sometime before the start of the 100th anniversary of WW1, 5 August.

Here's hope they don't commemorate that anniversary by once again going over the top!  :p

 

Happy Guy

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Hah! Good one.

In this context I think that we will see a vast number of politicians from all parties "going over the top", so to speak, with photo ops and spouting (spewing) banal canned speeches without any real meaning or feeling.
 

Fishbone Jones

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Happy Guy said:
I heard from my boss that Army Officers are to change to their new ranks sometime before the start of the 100th anniversary of WW1, 5 August.  I gathered from reading the posts here that the new ranks will be available through Logistiks.

Cheers

There's a CO in Windsor that bought his own from CP Gear and has been wearing them since November 2013.
 

dapaterson

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recceguy said:
There's a CO in Windsor that bought his own from CP Gear and has been wearing them since November 2013.

...which the Army Commander has explicitly prohibited.  Not that that stops certain members of the Buttons and Bows Brigade...
 

x_para76

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recceguy said:
There's a CO in Windsor that bought his own from CP Gear and has been wearing them since November 2013.

I'm surprised that a certain C.O from Hamilton hasn't done the same thing.
 

McG

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recceguy said:
There's a CO in Windsor that bought his own from CP Gear and has been wearing them since November 2013.
dapaterson said:
...which the Army Commander has explicitly prohibited.  Not that that stops certain members of the Buttons and Bows Brigade...
He clearly realizes the strategic importance of peacock fashion.  One's worth is measured through the distinctiveness and flamboyance of appearance.
Is he also one of the wise leaders bullying subordinates over the disloyalty of not investing immediately in new mess kit rank, warning of impediments to promotion despite Army instructions that mess kit need not be changed until (and if) next promoted?

There is another new element in British general and air marshal rank insignia that I hope we adopt ... The Brits the only nation whose GOFOs I've noted doing this (and doing it fairly uniformly), and if we followed then we would have the bling to outshine any enemy.  Not only could we be the only NATO member country without our own rank insignia, we would also be the first to simultaneously dress as two of our allies.
 

Kat Stevens

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Why don't you give it a rest?  Your constant bleating about this is getting tiresome.  Decision made, live with it or make it your hill to die on.  Either way, just stop.
 

McG

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Kat Stevens said:
Why don't you give it a rest?
Why don't you stop reading the thread if it tires you?
I didn't bring the topic back up.  I only responded to revived discussion.
 

vonGarvin

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MCG said:
Why don't you stop reading the thread if it tires you?
I didn't bring the topic back up. I only responded to revived discussion.


No, you didn't.  You essentially ranted, which is your prerogative as DS on this site.  But don't worry, I won't criticize you for it, because I don't want to end up in the warning bin.  Again.

Now, if some guy is out wearing something, anything on his uniform that he ought not to, or is out of dress in any other way (boots not bloused, cap badge over the wrong eye or body part, etc), then I guess we can call him or her out on it.  Which we do. 

But your laser-beam focus seemeda bit...spiteful.  Just how it came across is all. 

:salute:





 

Kirkhill

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155 pages - time for some more tradition.

The traditional version of the British Grenadiers:

"Some talk of constipation and some of diarrhea,
Some talk of masturbation and some of gonorrhea,
But of all the worst diseases there's none as can compare,
To the drip, drip, drip
Of the syphilitic prick,
Of the British Grenadiers."

I do love tradition.

Except when I crave novelty.
 

McG

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Technoviking said:
Now, if some guy is out wearing something, anything on his uniform that he ought not to, or is out of dress in any other way (boots not bloused, cap badge over the wrong eye or body part, etc), then I guess we can call him or her out on it.  Which we do. 

But your laser-beam focus seemeda bit...spiteful.  Just how it came across is all. 
Recceguy told us of a CO who ignored direction in order to participate in peacock pageantry.  My experience of such leaders is that they impose such things in their subordinates ... The type who demand unnecessary fashion procurements from the kit shop and threaten to freeze careers as a consequence.  I am curious if RG's guy fits that model.

In any case, you are only so bothered by my post because you are a cheerleader for this change.  You attack me because it is easier than defending what you want (ie. the change to British Rank of the 1920's).  Those who neither emotionally invested nor tediously stubborn have given up commenting, and I am sure that they would be thrilled if we not continue to debate the topic.  But, I am tediously stubborn and willing to remind of the change's foolishness in any conversation on this topic. I also enjoy a good argument, and so you can feel free to post all your thoughts on why you think it is best for the Canadian Army to wear British Army rank; we can then bore everyone else as we go back and forth on the topic.

But, if you want to just employ ad hominem, belligerently pretending your complaint is my persistence while you demonstrate the same persistence in championing British Army rank, then I suppose someone will come along and lock this thread again.  But that won't silence the opinion.  While I try to constrain my commentary on re-Britification of the Canadian military to this thread, for many this is symbolic/illustrative of disconnect in priorities.  Pips & crowns is and will continue to be the poster child for those seeking an analogy of robbing from necessary to feed frivolous; it will be the joke in any discussion of waste and inefficiency.
... and I don't/won't have to post anything for that to be the case.  The sentiment is being expressed by all sorts of people through a plethora of threads (even at least twice this past few days).
  • George Wallace said:
    What are we all wasting time on Pips and Crowns for?  Will they help us to destruct the TB or any other belligerent that we may face in the future?  Needless staff work and expense is wasted on so many projects; Tim Horton's was relatively minor in the scheme of things considering.  It didn't call for a devolution of our history.
  • Old Sweat said:
    "America does not need the Air Force" - does Canada?
    I'm afraid all that would be accomplished, besides causing a boom for the acme pips and crowns company and the peerless executive curl company, would be to create another bunch of headquarters. You would have the head of the army, and then you would need a head of land forces and a head of the army air force and then a transport brigade and a aviation brigade and a fighter brigade and on an on. And the same thing would happen with the navy.
  • E.R. Campbell said:
    ... look on the brights side:

        1. New RCAF mess dress;

        2. Rumour has it that the RCAF will get new (old) rank badges and new (old) rank designations; and

        3. Pips and crowns for the Army and the executive curl for the RCN.

    These are the priorities we can manage under the Conservatives' Canada First Defence Strategy; there's no time to fuss about friggin' foreign flying machines.
  • Ludoc said:
    Eye In The Sky said:
    Removing MCpl and replacing with Lance Cpl and Cpl is "6 half and one dozen of the other".  Would serve no purpose other than to keep the base tailor busy and spend some tax dollars.
    *cough* Pips and Crowns *cough*
  • OldTanker said:
    ... its only two-weeks -and-a-bit away, and still no direction or plan? I do notice however that there is no shortage of direction on where the pips and crowns will go and what the new Army buttons will look like. Maybe all the decision-making effort is going into trivial issues. Plus ca change . . .
  • Journeyman said:
    But we're getting new badges on a pretty regular basis....and growing new HQs..... and renaming the ones we have...

    .... sure, we're cannibalizing B Vehs and the troops have to share mukluks for an arctic exercise, but you can't have everything:pop:
The good news, for you, is that no conversation on this site is going to change where we are going with "new" British ranks.  So you don't need to worry about anybody upsetting your getting to see these British ranks on Canadian uniforms.

... now, how about we get back to the discussion and leave things for RG to come answer the questions about the guy he was telling us about?
 

myself.only

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Probably didn't paste correctly but I believe that this is a recent change to the website:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/honours-history-badges-insignia/rank-army.page?

In addition new badges for DEU are available thru Logistik.

I imagine there's a CANFORGEN out there but haven't seen it yet.
 

Nfld Sapper

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myself.only said:
Probably didn't paste correctly but I believe that this is a recent change to the website:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/honours-history-badges-insignia/rank-army.page?

In addition new badges for DEU are available thru Logistik.

I imagine there's a CANFORGEN out there but haven't seen it yet.

The only badges avail through LOGISTIKS AFAIK are the NCM badges (and only when ordering a new tunic) and the Canada flashes... all others are provided through the supply system or kit shops...
 

dapaterson

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CANFORGEN came out today with direction: all officers in Army DEU are to log on to the clothing system to request their initial issue of a new DEU tunic, together with accoutrements.

However, permission to wear the new ranks has not yet been issued.

Further information is hidden on the Army site at: http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/assets/ARMY_Internet/images/00-news/2014/04/PinningOnDiagram2014-04.jpg
 

Eye In The Sky

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myself.only said:
Probably didn't paste correctly but I believe that this is a recent change to the website:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/honours-history-badges-insignia/rank-army.page?

In addition new badges for DEU are available thru Logistik.

I imagine there's a CANFORGEN out there but haven't seen it yet.

Yup, saw it today.
 

sapperboysen

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When I logged onto Logistik I was asked to put in my measurements for a new tunic. A directive came down from my HQ that all army officers are to order new tunics as the braid leaves the sleeve all "un-military" in appearance. Nothing a good dry cleaning and press couldn't fix, but I digress. Also coming with the new tunic are two sets of metal pips, the new army buttons (as I'm CIC and don't have regimental ones), and three pairs of slip-ons. This is just to get the initial issue out. Any orders after will be through local supply bases. Also of note is that jacket orders will be frozen until April 2015 unless there are "exceptional circumstances".
 

Eye In The Sky

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NFLD Sapper said:
The only badges avail through LOGISTIKS AFAIK are the NCM badges (and only when ordering a new tunic) and the Canada flashes... all others are provided through the supply system or kit shops...

Check the CANFORGENs.  The DEU ones will be thru Logistik, and CADPAT stuff thru supply.  Dates, etc are detailed in the CANFORGEN.
 

Nfld Sapper

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Eye In The Sky said:
Check the CANFORGENs.  The DEU ones will be thru Logistik, and CADPAT stuff thru supply.  Dates, etc are detailed in the CANFORGEN.

Seen.
 

Loachman

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MCG said:
There is another new element in British general and air marshal rank insignia that I hope we adopt ... The Brits the only nation whose GOFOs I've noted doing this (and doing it fairly uniformly), and if we followed then we would have the bling to outshine any enemy.  Not only could we be the only NATO member country without our own rank insignia, we would also be the first to simultaneously dress as two of our allies.

But one of the "justifications" for adopting British rank insignia was that stars and crowns were a more internationally-standardized rank insignia than bars/rings.

So these guys are Captains and Lieutenants, no?

dapaterson said:
CANFORGEN came out today with direction: all officers in Army DEU are to log on to the clothing system to request their initial issue of a new DEU tunic, together with accoutrements.

And so much for the "no-cost" claim as well.

How many pairs of mukluks would this buy?
 
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