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Remains found at Kamloops residential school 'not an isolated incident,' Indigenous experts and leaders warn

Remius

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If this was arson, and to be honest it’s hard not to jump to conclusions, then it’s clear that this was a message to the Catholic Church.

the church has never been known for transparency and right now they don’t seem to want to be very cooperative or apologetic. I get it. It has financial ramifications. But it smacks of their usual strategy when confronted by scandal.

In this case, I think the Church should do all it can to make reparations or at least unseal documents and be more transparent. Not just because it would be the right thing to do but also avoid more erosion of its membership in Canada.
 

Kilted

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If this was arson, and to be honest it’s hard not to jump to conclusions, then it’s clear that this was a message to the Catholic Church.

the church has never been known for transparency and right now they don’t seem to want to be very cooperative or apologetic. I get it. It has financial ramifications. But it smacks of their usual strategy when confronted by scandal.

In this case, I think the Church should do all it can to make reparations or at least unseal documents and be more transparent. Not just because it would be the right thing to do but also avoid more erosion of its membership in Canada.
Because building in two different locations spontaneously combust all the time? Isn't the fact that the Pope hasn't apologized related to the concept of papal infallibility, where the pope can't say anything wrong according to what Catholics believe?

Now another question, is this a hate crime, is this terrorism? If this was to occur to a place of worship of any other religion (although probably not a Protestant Church) it would easily be to use both terms.
 

The Bread Guy

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... Isn't the fact that the Pope hasn't apologized related to the concept of papal infallibility, where the pope can't say anything wrong according to what Catholics believe? ...
Given that statements at least adjacent to an apology have been delivered in 2018 and 2010 to people mistreated while in the Catholic church's care, some can be forgiven for thinking it's not Papal infallibility holding things back here.

For the record, here's what Canada's Conference of Catholic Bishops has had to say about who's responsible - highlights mine:
The Catholic community in Canada has a decentralized structure. Each Diocesan Bishop is autonomous in his diocese and, although relating to the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, is not accountable to it.

Approximately 16 out of 70 Catholic dioceses in Canada were associated with the former Indian Residential Schools, in addition to about three dozen Catholic religious communities. Each diocese and religious community is corporately and legally responsible for its own actions. The Catholic Church as a whole in Canada was not associated with the Residential Schools, nor was the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops.

In a brief submitted to the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples in November 1993, the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops said that “various types of abuse experienced at some residential schools have moved us to a profound examination of conscience as a Church.”

Already in 1991, Canadian Catholic Bishops and leaders of men and women religious communities had issued a statement that “We are sorry and deeply regret the pain, suffering and alienation that so many experienced” at the Residential Schools.
 

Remius

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Because building in two different locations spontaneously combust all the time? Isn't the fact that the Pope hasn't apologized related to the concept of papal infallibility, where the pope can't say anything wrong according to what Catholics believe?

Now another question, is this a hate crime, is this terrorism? If this was to occur to a place of worship of any other religion (although probably not a Protestant Church) it would easily be to use both terms.
Hey, I'm being careful not to declare it as arson until the authorities say so. Like I said it isn't hard to jump to that conclusion.

Papal apologies aren't a new concept and has happened before for a variety of things. The Irish sex abuse scandal, the treatment of Latin America during colonial times, the role the church played during the holocaust etc etc. Normally the Pope does it in person.

The concept of Papal infallibility is related to Church Doctrine and Faith. It has to meet certain conditions and isn't universally accepted nor is it something that's been around for that long (I think it was introduced in the late 1800s early 1900s but would have to check). So I would argue that no. A lack of apology has nothing to do with that.

Now is it a hate crime or not? Maybe. Terrorism? It would depend on the motivation but I would be less likely to support that argument. Not enough info right now to know. I see it in a similar to vandalism caused to monuments and symbols.
 

The Bread Guy

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Also for the record, some franchises of Big Church* seem to be trying to do the right thing ....
Ottawa-Cornwall Archbishop Marcel Damphousse issued a formal apology Monday to Indigenous people for the Catholic Church's role in the residential school system.

He also called on Pope Francis, the global head of the church of approximately 1.3 billion people, to apologize, as well ...
Meanwhile, elsewhere in Big Church ...
Cardinal Thomas Collins, the archbishop of Toronto, said Sunday that a "dramatic" step such as a formal apology from the Pope is perhaps not the best route forward in grappling with the Catholic Church's role in Canada's residential school system.

"I'm sure there will be further contact with the Holy Father, but I don't know whether seeking always some big and dramatic thing is really the way forward. I think step by step is better and working with other people," Collins said in an interview on Rosemary Barton Live.

"I think that the much more important thing is the day-to-day work, quietly, gently," he told CBC chief political correspondent Rosemary Barton ...
* - This is to differentiate the "corporate" church/bureaucracy from all the branches/churches/parishes that truly are doing good things to help people out there.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Using the standards to attack MacDonald, the majority of FN Bands should be censured as well for promoting slavery and oppression of women. Not to mention the inhumane treatment of prisoners in their care.
 

Loachman

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An excellent article in defence of MacDonald.

I'm not a huge fan of either David Frum or The Atlantic, but I thought so as well.

I'd read something similar in the Kingston paper - also outlining that it was very unlikely that he could have known what was actually happening - a few months ago but could not find it online. This, I think, was better.

I had waffled on my support for Sir John, and my natural objection to statue removals and other history purges had waned somewhat, since reading more about the particular horrors suffered in those schools but I am back to seeing him as somebody who did far more good than bad.

. . . While still completely conscious of the evils committed on those children and their families.
 

Remius

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I was going to comment on youusing Frum or the Atlantic lol. But it’s more about the argument and the point he makes.

It is a balancing act. I think what the Kingston Coucil did was about as much as they could and struck a decent balance.

it’s a case by case situation in my mind. I have no issues with places in the US removing statues of traitors and that were erected for the sole purpose of reminding a minority of who was still in charge.

I don’t think though, that a statue to Sir John A would have been erected with the same goals or purpose. We can’t deny that he was and is our first PM. Instrumental in what Canada would become. I am also conscious that for some, he heralded in the end of certain ways of life even though he himself may not have been responsible.

It was a well argued article that gives one food for thought.
 

Colin Parkinson

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As I said before, the people prior to the 20th century had some reasoning in their beliefs even if you disagree with them and life was a lot harder all around. But after the start of the 20th century, the differences between lifestyle and health outcomes between native and non-native begin to diverge quickly. It was at the start of the 20th Century that Eugenics started to take hold in the minds of the upper class and Elite and I suspect that line of reasoning had a lot to do with it.
 

Good2Golf

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So let’s move into the late 20th-Century…an era of democratic enlightenment…

How long before this statue comes down?

744A202E-4BDA-491A-ACAD-DB77AE81DD9B.jpeg
You know, the guy who wanted to offer Canada’s indigenous peoples a ‘New Deal’ in a flashy White Paper in 1969 through what was known and intended to be full assimilation, under the guise of repealing the Indian Act, and transferring only the existing reservation land as well as downloading all follow-on funding and claims to the provinces…and, when the First Nations challenged the many flaws in his plan, he threw a hissy fit and non-constructively, but predictably responded: “We’ll keep them in the ghetto as long as they want.”
 

daftandbarmy

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So let’s move into the late 20th-Century…an era of democratic enlightenment…

How long before this statue comes down?

View attachment 65535
You know, the guy who wanted to offer Canada’s indigenous peoples a ‘New Deal’ in a flashy White Paper in 1969 through what was known and intended to be full assimilation, under the guise of repealing the Indian Act, and transferring only the existing reservation land as well as downloading all follow-on funding and claims to the provinces…and, when the First Nations challenged the many flaws in his plan, he threw a hissy fit and non-constructively, but predictably responded: “We’ll keep them in the ghetto as long as they want.”

But he was good at shoveling money off the back of the truck to everyone in Eastern Canada, so we'll overlook that :)
 

Quirky

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Just out of curiosity, would you say the same for mosques, synagogues, gurdwaras, temples, etc? Or is your focus entirely on Christian houses of worship? Asking for a friend.
Yes sir, religion is the real pandemic on this planet. But that’s a discussion for another thread.
 

Loachman

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I was going to comment on youusing Frum or the Atlantic lol. But it’s more about the argument and the point he makes.

I read/watch things across a reasonably-wide spectrum, generally not bothering with the looney-extreme fringes but occasionally going for a dip just to maintain some awareness of what's lurking out there. I came across that one on Bourque Newswatch. He leans left, but drags up some interesting articles that I might otherwise miss at times and has some good links pages. He no longer refreshes articles as frequently as he did a few years ago.

It is a balancing act. I think what the Kingston Coucil did was about as much as they could and struck a decent balance.

I rather thought so as well. It could have been worse.

it’s a case by case situation in my mind. I have no issues with places in the US removing statues of traitors and that were erected for the sole purpose of reminding a minority of who was still in charge.

"Traitors"?

As in Confederate Generals?

The US states have more autonomy than our provinces, so there was a contest of loyalty for many when the US Civil War broke out. To which does one owes one's primary loyalty - one's state, or the union of states, which had become broken? Americans do not swear an oath to a king or queen or any other individual, but a flag and a constitution. I've not attempted to determine if states had/have a right to secede from a union which they had freely and voluntarily joined, but believe that they should, similar to Britain joining and leaving the EU.

Those were hard personal decisions to make, and I envy none who had to make them, or fight against friends and former colleagues on the other side, or even family members in some cases.

But there was a conscious decision made, once it was over, re-unify and reconcile and rebuild, including accepting personnel back into the Union Army without sanction for simply fighting on the losing side.

I see nothing wrong with statues honouring men who fought valiantly and ethically and did their duty well as they saw fit, and I do not agree with removing them - especially by mob.

And I do not agree with applying today's standards to people from centuries past.

I don’t think though, that a statue to Sir John A would have been erected with the same goals or purpose. We can’t deny that he was and is our first PM. Instrumental in what Canada would become. I am also conscious that for some, he heralded in the end of certain ways of life even though he himself may not have been responsible.

The "new way of life" was not completely, if at all, imposed by him, but by others over whom he had no control - like those who almost completely wiped out the buffalo.

It was a well argued article that gives one food for thought.

Yes, it was.

And most of the past is a complete mess.

I am still awaiting restitution and apologies from the Normans who invaded my ancestral lands and raped, pillaged, and plundered my ancestors, and the Danes who invaded my ancestral lands and raped, pillaged, and plundered my ancestors before them, and the Romans who invaded my ancestral lands and raped, pillaged, and plundered my ancestors before them, and the Celts who invaded my ancestral lands and raped, pillaged, and plundered my ancestors before them, and the . . .

But I would, almost guaranteed, have to make reparations and give grovelling apologies to each contingent as well, as various ancestors were raping, pillaging, and plundering other ancestors in turn - most probably all of the way from Africa and through the middle east and Europe and Scandinavia to the green and sceptered isle.
 

Loachman

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So let’s move into the late 20th-Century…an era of democratic enlightenment…

How long before this statue comes down?

You know, the guy who wanted to offer Canada’s indigenous peoples a ‘New Deal’ in a flashy White Paper in 1969 through what was known and intended to be full assimilation, under the guise of repealing the Indian Act, and transferring only the existing reservation land as well as downloading all follow-on funding and claims to the provinces…and, when the First Nations challenged the many flaws in his plan, he threw a hissy fit and non-constructively, but predictably responded: “We’ll keep them in the ghetto as long as they want.”

Somebody did paint a statue of him somewhere black not too long ago.

But perhaps they thought that it was the more recent Trudeau.
 

Kilted

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I am still awaiting restitution and apologies from the Normans who invaded my ancestral lands and raped, pillaged, and plundered my ancestors, and the Danes who invaded my ancestral lands and raped, pillaged, and plundered my ancestors before them, and the Romans who invaded my ancestral lands and raped, pillaged, and plundered my ancestors before them, and the Celts who invaded my ancestral lands and raped, pillaged, and plundered my ancestors before them, and the . . .

But I would, almost guaranteed, have to make reparations and give grovelling apologies to each contingent as well, as various ancestors were raping, pillaging, and plundering other ancestors in turn - most probably all of the way from Africa and through the middle east and Europe and Scandinavia to the green and sceptered isle.
I would say the same thing, but I'm descended from all of them. The British people are a mixup of mostly Celtic/Breton-German-Norse peoples who have gradually interbred. Most people of British descent are a lot more closely related than they think. Another reason why I think any attempt to break-up the UK is silly.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Speaking of interbreeding, that's a big topic in some bands with the "Half-breeds" starting to outnumber the "True bloods" and some high caste families trying to maintain that true blood by marrying only other full-blooded Indians. The good news is that the half-breeds don't have a fantasy of what life was like and are generally faster to adapt to the world around them.
 
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